Chop Chord Transition - G to D Question

[bmfsfan615]

Hello all,

I’m still a beginner and had a quick question as it relates to switching chop chords seamlessly from G to D while only moving your middle and ring fingers and keeping your pointer and pinky grounded. In other words, making a D chop chord with your middle, ring and pinky fingers (instead of using the pointer, middle and ring).

For some reason, my fingers do not want to cooperate - is this something everyone deals with when trying to learn this approach? Did you all find any exercises to be particularly helpful to aid in learning this? I am trying to keep my pointer and pinky grounded on the strings where they were for the G chord without moving them, but my hand wants the pinky to move in lockstep with the ring finger if that makes sense (I’m almost forced to take my pinky off altogether and put it back down once the ring has moved).

Thanks in advance for your time!

[Bill McCall]

I just practiced the transition without using the right hand. If you have trouble with finger independence, there are exercises in Mike Marshall’s Fingerbusters (NFI obviously).

I also recommend starting with the A to E transition before walking down to G to D.

Just takes time. Don’t force it.

[ralph johansson]

Which G chord? Which D chord? And, which key?

Hopefully you're not talking here about the so-called "D chop chord", 7-4-5-2, which doesn't sound good, and doesn't connect well with other chords, because of the doubled third.

For I to V in G major I would most likely use 7-5-2-* and 7-4-3-* thereby including the 7th. For IV to I in D major I might use the same G form, and 7-4-5-*, omitting the 5th, and doubling the tonic. Another variant would be 4-5-5-* to 2-4-5-*.

[bmfsfan615]

Yes, I was referring to moving from I to V in G major with the beginner chops

[Mark Gunter]

Those can be difficult chords, many people (like Ralph above, myself included) choose not to use them anyway for various reasons, but they are *very* common in traditional bluegrass players and no reason not to use them if that’s your target.

To answer your question: Yes, all players experience difficulty in getting chords under their fingers, and most players experience difficulty with finger independence. The only way forward is to practice, practice, practice. Not only making the chords, but actually using them in songs. Don’t overdo it, don’t hurt yourself, but practice, practice, practice as often as you can and one day soon you will find that it becomes second nature.

[tmsweeney]

I agree with Ralph and Mark, the most common G-D chop I know is

G 7-5-3-2

D 7-4-5-x ( don't play the E string)

i would start with just landing on either chord
when you are landing clean without too much thought- then start going back and forth,
you can chop 4 beats each and work your way down to 1 beat each.

I find myself jumping to open chords even when chopping at times
if you're not strong on the open chords

G 0-0-2-3
D 2-0-0-2

then get those down before moving to chop chords

[bmfsfan615]

I agree with Ralph and Mark, the most common G-D chop I know is

G 7-5-3-2

D 7-4-5-x ( don't play the E string)

i would start with just landing on either chord
when you are landing clean without too much thought- then start going back and forth,
you can chop 4 beats each and work your way down to 1 beat each.

I find myself jumping to open chords even when chopping at times
if you're not strong on the open chords

G 0-0-2-3
D 2-0-0-2

then get those down before moving to chop chords

Thanks for your reply - I should have been more clear - I’m playing only 7-4-5-x on the D chop. My question is more around how do you move from a G chord to D chord in G major scale by only moving your middle finger and ring finger from the G chord to the D chord. So using the middle finger on 4, ring finger on 5 and keeping the pinky grounded on 7 when transitioning from G to D. My fingers have trouble doing that as opposed to just playing with pointer, middle and ring. Even if I move to shorter move like A to E as Bill mentioned above, my fingers still don't want to cooperate specifically my ring finger

[Josh Levine]

You are just dealing with muscle memory and strength. Your fingers are probably not used to do this, which is why they don’t want to do it. Probably experienced something similar as you learned the G chop, as many do. The only “trick” is to keep doing it and maybe apply as little pressure as you can. That should allow you to do a decent chop anyways if you are fretting very lightly. Then as your strength builds you can apply more pressure as needed/desired based on the effect you seek.

[Mark Gunter]

They’re not going to naturally - you have to train them. See my previous message. This is not unique to you. Learning to catch new chords will require training yourself at every stage in your musical journey. People either work through it, or give up.

1. You are doing it correctly

2. These are difficult chords

3. The pinky (for most people) resists independence

4. Making chords on stringed instruments does not come naturally, your fingers have to be trained for the acrobatics involved

5. There is no secret beyond training yourself via practice

Practice, Practice, Practice

[CES]

I've been playing almost 20 years now and will only rarely go from G chop to D chop as you're describing, and usually only if it's the final chord in a song or a quick transition. I usually do the full hand shift. Though I play OM and guitar as well and have a pretty strong pinky, if I'm gonna be on that D for a few measures I prefer to have the stronger fingers fretting. You get used to it after a while and won't even have to think about it eventually. Lots of good advice above, and one thing that really helped me when I got that first Kentucky back in 2004 was to start higher up the neck. Try A-->E for a while, and, when that gets comfortable, gradually work you was back down the neck. You could even start on a B if the A-->E is too tough.

[mbruno]

Hello all,

I’m still a beginner and had a quick question as it relates to switching chop chords seamlessly from G to D while only moving your middle and ring fingers and keeping your pointer and pinky grounded. In other words, making a D chop chord with your middle, ring and pinky fingers (instead of using the pointer, middle and ring).

For some reason, my fingers do not want to cooperate - is this something everyone deals with when trying to learn this approach? Did you all find any exercises to be particularly helpful to aid in learning this? I am trying to keep my pointer and pinky grounded on the strings where they were for the G chord without moving them, but my hand wants the pinky to move in lockstep with the ring finger if that makes sense (I’m almost forced to take my pinky off altogether and put it back down once the ring has moved).

Thanks in advance for your time!

I did a lesson on what I refer to as Guide Fingers that goes over this if you're interested - https://mattcbruno.com/2022/10/mando...guide-fingers/

I think the key is just finding a way to move as little as possible when changing chords unless there's a specific need for a specific chord.

[bmfsfan615]

I did a lesson on what I refer to as Guide Fingers that goes over this if you're interested - https://mattcbruno.com/2022/10/mando...guide-fingers/

I think the key is just finding a way to move as little as possible when changing chords unless there's a specific need for a specific chord.

Thank you - instead of the D major chord, I was curious about the d major chop chord movement from G by using middle, ring and pinky

[hubrad]

I'll throw my tuppence into the ring.. I often play the D as you describe, bmfsfan615, but extra so 7-4-5-5 with a small barre on those 5s. Sometimes just the way you describe so a 3 course chord.
If I want to change the most swiftly to a G I'll usually switch the index and middle fingers to give me 7-5-5-3, little barre on those 5s again, which is a modal G so all root and 5th.
As others have said, there isn't really a wrong answer here, so much as several right ones so you use whichever suits you at the time.

[Mark Gunter]

bmfsfan615 have you seen Pete Martin’s video on this very topic? My assumption is that you are doing this “correctly” and simply need to practice & use it until your fingers begin to cooperate.

https://youtu.be/nLwRs0aNINM

[bmfsfan615]

bmfsfan615 have you seen Pete Martin’s video on this very topic? My assumption is that you are doing this “correctly” and simply need to practice & use it until your fingers begin to cooperate.

https://youtu.be/nLwRs0aNINM

Mark - thank you so much, this is exactly what I was looking for. Pete makes it look so easy but this at least gives me the right way to practice the transition. Really appreciate it!

[EdHanrahan]

Did you all find any exercises to be particularly helpful ...

Assuming that, like many of us, you're already a guitar player, here's how I accidentally "pre-trained" my pinkie for mandolin chop chords.

Playing in rock bands way back when, it was sometimes useful to play D & E chords in a closed position by moving the "open-C" formation up by 2 or 4 frets, using a 1st-finger bar over the high 3 strings, and my pinkie in the root ("C") position 3 frets further up the neck. Therefore, D = x54232, and E = 076454, which requires similar pinkie strength and stretch to the G-chop on mandolin. Try it, it can't hurt! (Yeah, it IS easier on electric, but can be done on acoustic!)

[bmfsfan615]

Assuming that, like many of us, you're already a guitar player, here's how I accidentally "pre-trained" my pinkie for mandolin chop chords.

Playing in rock bands way back when, it was sometimes useful to play D & E chords in a closed position by moving the "open-C" formation up by 2 or 4 frets, using a 1st-finger bar over the high 3 strings, and my pinkie in the root ("C") position 3 frets further up the neck. Therefore, D = x54232, and E = 076454, which requires similar pinkie strength and stretch to the G-chop on mandolin. Try it, it can't hurt! (Yeah, it IS easier on electric, but can be done on acoustic!)

Thank you Ed - my main issue has been the finger interdependence as my ring and pinky move in unison when transitioning from A to E or G to D

[Ky Slim]

Hello all,

I am trying to keep my pointer and pinky grounded on the strings where they were for the G chord without moving them, but my hand wants the pinky to move in lockstep with the ring finger if that makes sense (I’m almost forced to take my pinky off altogether and put it back down once the ring has moved).

Thanks in advance for your time!

So are you trying to keep your pointer finger on the B note (2nd fret A string) when you shift to the D chord 7-4-5-x? Try freeing up all fingers but your pinky for that move.

[Tom Morse]

Here's a different way to think about it. Although, first, know that all of the advice above from our mando compatriots is valid. We all agree that the G-D-G chop swap is a great tool. I use it a lot (since 1979). But consider this: the real key to the chop chord is a subtle release of the pressure (but not the contact touch) on all strings a nanosecond after you've "hit" the chord. That easing up on the pressure cancels the string vibration and gives you that percussive chop. I think if you focus some on that aspect, slowly and methodically, and then reset your fingers and re-pressurize the strings that may yield more satisfying results than forcing your pointer and pinky fingers to remain in a death grip with the fretboard. The truth is all of our advice will help and you will get it. Just stick to it. (And ask a guitar player how long it took to master the three-finger F chord.)

[Pete Martin]

Sorry, just noticed this. If I had seen this thread earlier, I would have posted that video myself.

I think viewing my left hand and pinkie ergonomics videos may be helpful as well.

Left hand:


Pinkie:

[Mark Gunter]

IMO you have the best lessons on the topic, Pete, and a massive wealth of info on many subjects at your website. Thanks for weighing in.

[ralph johansson]

Those can be difficult chords, many people (like Ralph above, myself included) choose not to use them anyway for various reasons, but they are *very* common in traditional bluegrass players and no reason not to use them if that’s your target.

To answer your question: Yes, all players experience difficulty in getting chords under their fingers, and most players experience difficulty with finger independence. The only way forward is to practice, practice, practice. Not only making the chords, but actually using them in songs. Don’t overdo it, don’t hurt yourself, but practice, practice, practice as often as you can and one day soon you will find that it becomes second nature.

I didn't realize the thread was about Bluegrass. My own BG period lasted from about 1963 to 1970, and in those days my approach to the genre was, not how or what Bill done, but what can I do with it, what's in it for me? Also, my main motive for the mandolin was my desire to play more busy tunes, fiddle tunes, polkas and "light rags" (like Beeswax Rag or Grizzlybear Rag) in their proper range. I was a couple of months into the instrument when I started working out chords, finding chord forms that sounded good to me and connected well, and had a good physical feel I never used a book or chord chart The first chord I found was the chop G (only then did I realize that I had a Monroe album with him fingering that chord on the cover), and after that various versions, some with the tonic or fifth doubled, in various positions. Having dabbled in other forms of popular music it was always my attitude that the V chord is a V7 chord, and sometimes should be preceeded or succeeded by passing chords like sus and dim chords. And of course, the 7 could be placed anywhere in the chord, e.g. at the botton: 5-6-5-*. Instead of the clumsy big chop I would often use 7-9-10-* (with the same compass, and no doubling) for the G, and 7-10-9-* for the D7, etc. Perhaps alien to the BG tradition, but useful in other genres, would be the use of the "upper intervals", like the 9 and 13. The high range of the mandolin would make clashes with other chordal instruments unlikely.

[JeffD]

For some reason, my fingers do not want to cooperate - is this something everyone deals with when trying to learn this approach?

I would bet yes. Certainly for me.

Yes the pinky isn't really a fully independent finger, in my experience. It is more like the pet of the ring finger, not free to roam, on a short leash.