Sawchyn AO-2 vs. Trillium

[BradB]

I am in the market for an octave mandolin. I have searched the forum archives and gotten a lot of good info. The two that I'm currently leaning toward are the Trillium and the Sawchyn. Has anyone here played both of these?

I have 2 mandolins built by Peter Sawchyn, so I'm familiar with his fantastic work, although I have not played or heard one of his octaves. The A-2 I have is the best sounding oval hole mando I have ever played, and the S-5 is absolutely gorgeous and plays and sounds great too. I'd really like to have him build me an AO-2 carved top octave, but they are rather expensive ($4070 Canadian, or about $3500 U.S.).

I also like the Trillium. It is around $2000, so significantly cheaper than the Sawchyn, but it is not a carved top instrument. I have heard recordings of these, and they sound good. I also like their look, although not as much as the Sawchyn. The Trillium would take about 4 months to build, where the Sawchyn would probably take at least a year. Both instruments have about a 22.5" scale.

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone could provide any sort of comparison of these 2 octaves.

Thanks,
Brad B.

[Rob Zamites]

I wish I could, but neither was available at Elderly in Lansing, MI, and I'm too dirt poor to afford either

[otterly2k]

I can't comment on the Sawchyn. However, I can say that the induced arch design (front and back) of the Trillium is quite notable... provides for a vaulted internal space, not just structural counter-pressures. The wood is thinner than a carved top instrument generally is, so it vibrates very freely, and the arched shape allows for a tone that is more covered and complex than the flat instruments I've played. I think it sounds easily as good as or better than the carved instruments I've played. The trade off is that it has a somewhat more delicate feel.

Sawchyn has an excellent reputation and you're already very happy with his work. I'm sure he'd build you a wonderful instrument too. And the longer wait gives you more time to save up... if you want to see the silver lining on that one.

Hope this is useful info. I have no investment in which way you go... but thought the direct Tril experience info might help you sort out what's best for you.

[BradB]

Thanks for the Trillium info. It is helpful. The recordings I heard of it were helpful too. It seemed to have the sustain and depth of a flat-top octave without the boxy sound that a lot of the flat-tops have.

Brad

[steve V. johnson]

I've met three Trilliums, Karen's is the one I with which I got to spend some real quality time. I almost kept it before she bought it.

Sawchyn stuff is pretty rare here in the US, I'd love to see and hear more of them.

A while back, when there weren't so many luthiers making OMs/zouks, choosing a luther started with the criteria of "carved top or not?" But as I searched and researched, and as more builders have come along, it's become much less of an issue to me, and I think for buyers in general.

Sobell, S.O.Smith, Nyberg, now Sawchyn... There must be some others I'm leaving out... The point is that there are about a half-dozen who carve the tops and they command the highest prices and have the longest waiting lists. Now there are another thirty or forty luthiers who are making really wonderful instruments and either using a flat top or an induced arch.

I'm going to take a bit of a 'flyer' on your "boxy sound" comment and presume that that means that the instrument has more body sound than a mandolinish sound (this is sort of a preoccupation of mine, the scale of 'mando-sound' to 'guitar-sound' involving the sound of the body box).

I have heard OMs with induced arch tops that had very little body resonance, and over time, I've been persuaded that it isn't the carved or not-carved top that makes the difference.

I -think- I'm still on Stephen O. Smith's waiting list (he hasn't sent back my deposit...) so I, too, would like to have a carved-top instrument, but I don't feel that that particular characteristic of the top is as important a criteria of an instrument as I used to.

Are there soundclips of the instruments on the Sawchyn website? I haven't been there in a while... Do you have any of yours? I'd really love to hear a Sawchyn OM...

Thanks,

stv

[BradB]

Steve,
If you go to the mandozine.com home recordings you can hear a bit of my Sawchyn mandolins. The Boys of Ballinafad captures the tone of the A-2 fairly well. June Apple was played on the S-5, but I neither played nor recorded that tune well enough to capture the tone of the S-5 very well. Mandolin Fanfare has both the A-2 and S-5 in it, and I recorded each one twice to give a fuller sound, so it's hard to pick out how either one sounds in that tune.

As far as "boxy", I don't just mean a guitar like sound. Some guitars sound boxy to me and some don't. To me, a Martin dreadnought doesn't sound boxy, but a Martin 00-18 does.

Brad Burns

[steve V. johnson]

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the directions to the recordings! Oboy!

As for "boxy"... Tough term... In the sense that you explain, it's hard to match it with my experience.
In this sense it's not a term I'd apply to many OMs that I've heard, with the exceptions being PacRim models...

I hope that one day we'll have a chance to do something like the Mando-Tasting CDs, where we have enough zouks/OMs in one place to do some recordings (as objectively and consistent as possible) so that there's some sort of database of sounds that we can use for comparison. Then our adjectives can fly around as they will among us, after the fact.

Even with the explosion (well it seems that way to me) in OM/zouk interest and makers recently, it's still very, very difficult to find, experience and compare various instruments. Bloody cults... <GGG>

stv

[Dolamon]

Sawchyn AO-2 / AK-2 comparison with other Big Mandolins ... difficult to compare. Peter built mine a few years ago and it is quite awkward and imprecise to compare it to virtually anything. That said - I played it in an ensemble of about five other mandolins / mandolas last week and found 1/ I had to drop down in pick size to .056 Ultem's to keep from drowning out the other instruments. 2/ I asked opinions of those five musicians and three or four other lollygaggers in the vicintity and - the one term they all agreed with regarding the sonic quality was "growling".

This is a slightly bigger version of his AO-2 with a Mando-Cello sized body and a 610mm scale (24 inch). The scale length was Peter's choice and while it does limit the playing to rhythm and bass lines (bass "weaving" is a trip) it is definately noticed - and felt by anyone in the room. As far as quality of build - the carved /recurve back and top have to be seen to be believed. The material he used for the top / back and sides is some of the best wood I've ever seen on ANY instrument- period. I've tried to photograph this 'thing' for over two years and the oversize subtleties (?) are lost in the pix. #

There are a few more of these which Peter made ... I held off responding to this thread as ... it is a difficult question and I was hoping one of the other owners would step in here. To compare it to either my Spira's or my Fylde is not really fair. The Fylde is sprightly and boomy for rhythm playing, the Spira's are spectacular for melody and counter melody. They are all terrific instruments which I hope to one day, do justice to.

I will try to post a pix or two here - when #I refresh myself on the arcane procedure.

[Dolamon]

An attempt at displaying my lack of prowess or understanding of digital photography.

[Dolamon]

And the front -

[Dolamon]

And the back- maybe - the white around the rim is part of the deep recurve which makes it difficult to photograph.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Dion,

The pix made your point, thanks! I like that word, "growling," for it, too !!!!

And again I note how poor our vocabulary is for these things...

Thanks!

stv

[BradB]

Hey that pumpkin top Sawchyn AO-2 would go nicely with my pumpkin top Sawchyn A-2.




I definitely know what you mean about Peter Sawchyn's craftsmanship. #My A-2 and S-5 are lifetime instruments for me, and have cured my MAS (except now I want an octave # ).

I can also understand the "growling" description. #My Sawchyn mandolins have a deep full bass. #Perhaps not as balanced as some mandos, but a very rich full sound. #In fact, Peter's own words describing his octave mandos are "mine have a very nice rich sound ,plenty of sustain, and are quite loud. The bottom register is quite strong as well."

Brad B.

[BradB]

Speaking of Sawchyn Octaves, this one from his website is pretty cool. It's essentially an octave sized A5 model. I corresponded with the owner, who owns a number of nice instruments, and he thinks this octave is the coolest instrument he owns.
I think I'm going for the oval hole version,though.


BB

[otterly2k]

These look wonderful! I have only had the opportunity to play 2 carved top/back OM (both Webers) which were pretty good, but I liked my Tril (induced arch) better. I'd love to have a chance to play more carved OM's, including Sawchyns, so as to get a better sense of what might be possible. carved OM's aren't easy to come by, but several luthiers will make them that way... Sawchyn, Nyberg, B.Dean, and others, I'm sure....

FYI-- related to the carved vs. arched question...
The OM being made for me by Brian Dean will have what he calls a "weebit" carved top (and induced arch back)...if you look at his website, under "options" he explains the differences... but essentially, it's kind of an in-between option. He also does fully carved, but recommended this option for OM sized instrument. I decided to trust his judgement on that and give it a try...

also a sneak peek at my OM in progress is on his "in progress" page.

[BradB]

Karen, that Brian Dean octave is going to be really really nice.

I came close to pulling the trigger on a Trillium. I've been listening to David Surette's recordings, and his Trillium sounds great. But my favorite sounding octaves have been the carved top Sobells. Since Sobells are expensive and hard to get I am hoping that I might get a similar tone from a Sawchyn carved top instrument. The body sizes are similar (but not the shape). It seems silly to order a custom carved instrument since I have little experience with octaves, but I love both of my Sawchyn mandolins and I have only heard rave reviews of his octaves, so I figure the risk of my not liking it is pretty low.

Brad B.

[otterly2k]

Brad-
it's all good. I don't see how you could go wrong with either one. If you love your Sawchyns... no reason not to go in that direction. And if, when it's done, it isn't exactly what you want, you can always sell it to finance a Tril or something else that appeals.

and re: the Dean... we have some beautiful details planned...if it sounds anywhere near as good as I KNOW it's going to look, I will be a very happy otter!

[Dolamon]

Brad - Peter made me a matching A-2 when he did the big mandolin. What an amazing instrument! #A good friend of mine, and a great mandolin player, paid the ultimate compliment by saying "someone finally got Gibson's idea right". That is probably the essence of the skill of Peter's craftsmanship - he takes the time to do it right.

The one little thing he does which is almost impossible to describe is the finished surface on the inside of the sound chamber. To me, it almost feels as if it had been burnished - no finish, just polished to perfection. I have absolutely no idea if this does anything to enhance the sound - but something in the construction really makes it complete.

Oddly - I don't play my Sawchyn's as often as the Spira's. Jack's instruments seem to fit my aging body better and I just get knocked over by the more straight forward and less complex tone.

[Michael Wolf]

I wonder why the question about flattop or archtop seems to be an bigger issue when it comes to octave mandos. In the (American)mandolin world most people seems to prefer archtops, and this is not only because they are all Bluegrassers, I assume. Is it because of the status of the instruments or maybe because the construction affects the sound in a different way in both music pitches (but then what's about archtop Guitars?). I'd be interested what you think.

Cheers
Michael

[steve V. johnson]

Nice question, Michael!

The luthiers who carve tops were regarded as the top people in the field and charged more for their work. Sobell, Smith, Nyberg. I'm sure there are some more, but those come to mind immediately. Other luthiers, more numerous than the carvers, induce an arch in their tops. Some of their OMs/zouks get as high priced as the carved ones, but it seems that most are less expensive.

So it's kind of easy to conclude that an arched top is more valuable somehow than a flat top.

In the last few years more luthiers are featuring flat tops (Chris Baird's work comes immediately to my mind), in OM/zouks and mandolins, too. There's a very complimentary thread in the 'Looking for info...' section about Bill Davis' flat-top A model mandolins.

I had a flat topped Fylde Octavious and I liked it a lot. It had a bit more guitar-y sound than a mando-y sound, but IMO that is a bit more attributable to the guitar-type pin bridge than to the flat top...

Clearly, I haven't got a definitive answer... <GG>

stv

[Michael Wolf]

I think flattops are definitely cheaper to produce because of lesser labor time, but the price differences that the builders charge are quite different. I think the cheaper construction doesn't mean lesser sound quality, but one may feel like this.
When playing different Bouzoukis, carved and flattops, I had the impression that they are clother together than the mandolins carved/flat-versions. But I'm not really shure, I only know that I'd be more willing to accept a flat Octave than a flattop Mando for some reason. If I'd like flattops more I could save a lot of money. My personal solution for the deep pitch is to play a Resohponic Tenor. So I don't have to worry that much about carved or flat in the moment.

Michael

[jmkatcher]

As another data point, I own a large flattop OM and it definitely isn't less in sound quality than the carved tops I've played. I'm more a fan of flattop guitars than archtops and wanted that sort of flavor in an OM. You can't confuse it with a guitar when you hear it though, but that's also a testimony to the builder.

[BradB]

It's just personal preference really, and some builders build both. You can see the Sawchyn carved OMs pictured in this thread, but I also posted photos of a flat-top Sawchyn bouzouki in another thread here. Both are top-quality high-end instruments. Both sound great, but different from each other. The flat-top instrument does cost less due to requiring less labor to build.

There are certain tonal qualities that I attribute to flat-top and to carved-top instruments, but there are so many other variables as far as bracing, wood, shape and size of the body, soundholes, string gauges, etc. that affect tone too.

Brad B.

[otterly2k]

It is definitely more labor intensive to make an instrument with carved plate as compared to flat ones (whether induced arch or not). So it makes sense that they are more expensive. But let's not confuse price with quality.

I think that carved and flattop instruments have different tonal tendencies, different qualities. I don't believe that arched top instruments are necessarily superior... a lot is a matter of player preference, etc. I would definitely pick a well made flat instrument over a poorly made carved instrument. Witness how many people are happy with Mid-Mo and pancake mandos. People are surprised at just how good a very simply-made instrument can sound.

As for diffs in the mando and OM/zouk arenas, I think that Gibson set the American standard for mandos and people want instruments like them... the sound, the look, etc. The development of what constitutes a really good mando has developed around that standard, and has been influenced by the prevalence of bluegrass as the engine that has propelled it. In classical and folk circles, and in non-US circles, preferences may tend differently or at least may have more room for variation(e.g. bowlbacks, flat or canted tops, etc.).

I also suspect that the carved vs. flat contrast may be different among mandos than OMs/zouks....that is that it might affect very short scale instruments differently that long scale ones. Not sure about this...wonder what others think...

OMs and 'Zouks are played (so far) more in folk music contexts (euro-centric) and instrument-making technology is not quite so US-dominant or Gibson-dominant. the OM's and zouks we play are morphed versions of/combinations of other instruments and influences.

That's my take on Michael's question.

[Danny Packer]

When I was discussing flat versus carved with Lawrence Nyberg (he does both) he only talked about the difference in sound. I am sure that the difference in price is about time and labor, but the key difference seems to be tone, which is primarily about taste (as suggested by the recent thread on Chorng!)

Danny