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Thread: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

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    Registered User D.Martin's Avatar
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    Default Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Hi guys, I was wondering how most of you are setting up your mandolin. I'm playing mando again after some time and hand issues in the left hand are pretty normal for me (I do play guitar for a living). On mandolin I mainly play classical music.

    So my Campanella Due usually has D'Addario J74s on it. Recently my hand was experiencing some fatigue and I needed a string change anyway so I went with some light gauge Elixers I had lying around. Going from the mediums too lights obviously it's easier on the left hand but tone suffers as light strings don't drive the top as much.

    What's the general opinion on setup & hand health? I can go heavier on strings and get away with lower action, or I can play lighter strings with less tension but with need higher action to avoid fret buzz and also so I have some resistance from the string, otherwise I'm just pressing up against the fingerboard.

    I'm wondering how most people approach their setup and in particular folks who might suffer from left hand issues like tendonitis, like me.

    Thanks!!

    Doug
    2007 Campanella Due
    1906 G. Bauer

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    I like to keep my action as low as possible and use medium string gauges. I suffer from arthritis and sometimes tendinitis.

    When it comes to tendinitis, I’m sure you’re already aware that rest of the tendon is the only real solution, and using the tendon (and especially over-using) only retards healing, it’s not the sort of thing that’s strengthened through exercise. Of course it’s impossible not to use an affected tendon at all, so care must be exercised to use it judiciously. The first thing is to deal with the tendinitis as directed by your physician.

    Beyond that, when it comes to playing, you should setup your instrument as it most pleases you. Folks have different preferences. Some with extreme problems have opted for nylon strings, tuning uke’s to GDAE, etc.

    It may help to look up Pete Martin’s ergonomics videos, because Pete has spent time and research working with physicians or phys therapists to develop some elementary “best practices” for mandolinists.
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  4. #3
    Registered User D.Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    I like to keep my action as low as possible and use medium string gauges. I suffer from arthritis and sometimes tendinitis.

    When it comes to tendinitis, I’m sure you’re already aware that rest of the tendon is the only real solution, and using the tendon (and especially over-using) only retards healing, it’s not the sort of thing that’s strengthened through exercise. Of course it’s impossible not to use an affected tendon at all, so care must be exercised to use it judiciously. The first thing is to deal with the tendinitis as directed by your physician.

    Beyond that, when it comes to playing, you should setup your instrument as it most pleases you. Folks have different preferences. Some with extreme problems have opted for nylon strings, tuning uke’s to GDAE, etc.

    It may help to look up Pete Martin’s ergonomics videos, because Pete has spent time and research working with physicians or phys therapists to develop some elementary “best practices” for mandolinists.
    Good advice! I'll check out those videos. Thank you for your response!
    2007 Campanella Due
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Pete’s video on ergonomics is here: https://youtu.be/0mDNJnKVO6A

    His website Beginner series that carries on this vein is here: https://www.petemartin.info/mandolin-basics-videos.html
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Martin View Post
    I [must] have some resistance from the string, otherwise I'm just pressing up against the fingerboard.
    I have tendonitis in both wrists and I have to be careful. On my practice mandolins I have very light strings and very low action. I use a heavy pick to get good tone. Michel Wegen trimus 250.

    I say key is to never press fingers against the fingerboard. Kills wrists/fingers and kills speed (you have to un-press after you press).

    My main battle axe is a bruce weber octave pancake with heavy strings and high action and as long as I use very light touch and never press fingers against fingerboard, I can play it for 4 hours of bluegrass jam without injury.

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocello8 View Post
    I have tendonitis in both wrists and I have to be careful. On my practice mandolins I have very light strings and very low action. I use a heavy pick to get good tone. Michel Wegen trimus 250.

    I say key is to never press fingers against the fingerboard. Kills wrists/fingers and kills speed (you have to un-press after you press).

    My main battle axe is a bruce weber octave pancake with heavy strings and high action and as long as I use very light touch and never press fingers against fingerboard, I can play it for 4 hours of bluegrass jam without injury.
    Thanks for the feedback. I feel like though most people recommend going to lighter strings and low action, at a certain point if there's no springy push back from the string, pushing against the fingerboard can't be good either long term.

    I'll leave the light strings on the Campanella for not but maybe experiment with raising the action a smidge to get a bit more resistance. I guess I have to keep experimenting. I like that you have a few different instruments with different setups.

    Doug
    2007 Campanella Due
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    I do not know how and what musics you play on guitar, but on mandolin, with doubled strings, I suggest you do not want to artificially increase your physical effort. we are here to play music, not to lift weights. light strings, low action, smooth flat wound thomastic strings, and your fingers and wrists will say "thank you!". (that said, if you must play loud, unplugged gigs, bluegrass jams, etc, heavy strings and high action is good, and this is why you have your practice mandolin and your battle axe mandolin and your recording mandolin and your ...).

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Just a thought here. It may not apply, I hope it doesn't, but it may help someone who reads this thread in the future.

    I suffered from extreme pain in my left hand. It was minor and i played through it, and it slowly got worse, and I cowboyed up and played through it and gradually it got so band I had to stop playing after only 30 minutes. Pain in the fingers and especially the back of the wrist. I thought I was soon to see the cessation of all mandolinning.

    Entirely separate from that I got my yearly physical, and learned I had diabetes. Through medication and diet I corrected my blood sugar in a week or so, and all the pain in my left hand went away. Gone. Along with it I lost some aches and pains I would experience when standing from a sitting position. These had associated with getting old, but they all abruptly went away once my blood sugar was corrected.

    Here I am many years later, and I can and do play as much as three or four hours at a jam without a break, ready to go at it again soon after.

    My only point is that sometimes what you are going through has nothing to do with what you are going through, and be open to the idea that the solution is quite different from what simple logic seems to dictate. I dodged a bullet I am sure, and giving up mallomars, moon pies, mint chocolate chip ice cream has been almost worth it.
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Just a thought here. It may not apply, I hope it doesn't, but it may help someone who reads this thread in the future.

    I suffered from extreme pain in my left hand. It was minor and i played through it, and it slowly got worse, and I cowboyed up and played through it and gradually it got so band I had to stop playing after only 30 minutes. Pain in the fingers and especially the back of the wrist. I thought I was soon to see the cessation of all mandolinning.

    Entirely separate from that I got my yearly physical, and learned I had diabetes. Through medication and diet I corrected my blood sugar in a week or so, and all the pain in my left hand went away. Gone. Along with it I lost some aches and pains I would experience when standing from a sitting position. These had associated with getting old, but they all abruptly went away once my blood sugar was corrected.

    Here I am many years later, and I can and do play as much as three or four hours at a jam without a break, ready to go at it again soon after.

    My only point is that sometimes what you are going through has nothing to do with what you are going through, and be open to the idea that the solution is quite different from what simple logic seems to dictate. I dodged a bullet I am sure, and giving up mallomars, moon pies, mint chocolate chip ice cream has been almost worth it.
    That all makes sense. We have to be open to all possibilities. I'm glad you got the root cause of your problem sorted out!

    Doug
    2007 Campanella Due
    1906 G. Bauer

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    (when my tendonitis was at the worst, I though my mandolin playing will be over and started learning irish whistle, the most ergonomic music instrument ever. later branched off into flutes. now glad I did, I use mandolin for tunes with many short notes, I use flute for tunes with many long notes).

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocello8 View Post
    (when my tendonitis was at the worst, I though my mandolin playing will be over and started learning irish whistle, the most ergonomic music instrument ever. later branched off into flutes. now glad I did, I use mandolin for tunes with many short notes, I use flute for tunes with many long notes).
    I like the idea of playing another instrument too. I also play jazz guitar for a living but it's more less the same kind of wear on my left hand. I could be nice to get into a completely different kind of instrument.
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    A few years ago and thinking about my arthritic future, I’d hoped to pick up a baritone sax 55 years after putting down my tenor. Unfortunately age and a lung disease diagnosis have conspired against me. I still have the accordion my parents got for me at 8 years old. Portland is near enough, maybe I can contact Jenny Conlee and get some lessons on The Decemberists songs. Thinking outside the squeezebox here.
    A couple years in, now, and still learning!
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    I don’t know what I want to be when I grow up.

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    "irish" whistle plays jazz just fine, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EymYtbcy8s0
    if you have no lungs, I guess it is bag pipes for you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zlzVsQqQJU
    (beware, learning pipes is a 10-year project and you may have to go to ireland for lessons)
    squeeze boxes are hard on the lower back (the heavy ones, 1-2-3 row accordeons) and hard on shoulders (small light ones, concertinas, etc)
    i still say whistles are the most easy on the body.

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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocello8 View Post
    "irish" whistle plays jazz just fine, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EymYtbcy8s0
    if you have no lungs, I guess it is bag pipes for you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zlzVsQqQJU
    (beware, learning pipes is a 10-year project and you may have to go to ireland for lessons)
    squeeze boxes are hard on the lower back (the heavy ones, 1-2-3 row accordeons) and hard on shoulders (small light ones, concertinas, etc)
    i still say whistles are the most easy on the body.
    Most later adults play the heavy 5-voice piano and CBA accordions seated - which eliminates the weight factor and back stress. However, other ergonomic issues present, such as: stress on left shoulder/arm operating heavy stradella bass, etc. But you rarely need full 120 bass unless you're playing classical, etc. I don't like to sit when performing so I play an 80 bass, which is adequate even for Brazilian jazz. If you're playing folk and all that, you can usually do fine with 48 or 72 bass - which, while half the weight, are still typically heavier than diatonic boxes. I began playing accordions to obviate hauling gear (amps, microphone, etc): it's glorious to have one piece of gear and be able to project to the back of the room. I just play instrumental, so don't even need to sing. Accordion is an incredibly efficient tool.

    Concertina is very ergonomic, but any arthritic hand issues could be exacerbated.

    Around 10 or 15 years ago I quit playing flamenco guitar due to the degree of athleticism required from the hands. I've since been playing cello, and oud, which do not stress my hands like high-tensioned, steel stringed instruments do. For folks with hand/wrist issues who like double-courses, I recommend oud.

    I have an arsenal of saxes, clarinets, flutes, etc, but darn they're just not polyphonic, so they don't see much action anymore.

  18. #15

    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by D.Martin View Post
    Hi guys, I was wondering how most of you are setting up your mandolin. I'm playing mando again after some time and hand issues in the left hand are pretty normal for me (I do play guitar for a living). On mandolin I mainly play classical music.

    So my Campanella Due usually has D'Addario J74s on it. Recently my hand was experiencing some fatigue and I needed a string change anyway so I went with some light gauge Elixers I had lying around. Going from the mediums too lights obviously it's easier on the left hand but tone suffers as light strings don't drive the top as much.

    What's the general opinion on setup & hand health? I can go heavier on strings and get away with lower action, or I can play lighter strings with less tension but with need higher action to avoid fret buzz and also so I have some resistance from the string, otherwise I'm just pressing up against the fingerboard.

    I'm wondering how most people approach their setup and in particular folks who might suffer from left hand issues like tendonitis, like me.

    Thanks!!

    Doug
    Certainly you'll have much better info by experimenting with your set-ups. So much of this is a game of compromise anyway, especially as we age, so I'm confident you'll find effective solutions that you can live (more easily) with.

    With my body, I found that, at 62, I just can't play like I used to. I still play some guitar (tele) which of course is wholly another animal than all the acoustic stuff I played all my life. And I exercise my flamenco chops just because it's a life-long habit, but no more performing - the technical rigor required is beyond my capacity; my hands can't take the number of hours to maintain performance-level proficiency.

    My solution was finding other instruments. Fortunately, there's no dearth of interesting forms in the world, and instrumental approaches in those idioms.

    Best of luck to you.

  19. #16
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Flamenco is definitely some physically demanding music. Years back in my youth I gave up on my dreams of being a classical guitarist because even then although I could play most of the things I wanted to study, my hands just did not have the endurance.

    I still play guitar for a living, jazz arch tops with flat woulds and low action seem to still be doable for me. As for the mandolin I just took the lights off and went back to medium J74s on the Campanella. The lights were so light I felt like I was pressing up against the fingerboard and it wasn't working out for me. The Mediums have just enough tension to give me a bit of springiness. Anyway it works for me so far. The experimentation continues.......
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    As you're coming at it with all your technique history on guitar maybe look at how the German school of mandolin thinking approach the holding and playing of their instruments. You shouldn't need heavy strings to drive the top of something like the Campanella. Technique which focusses on using as much of the energy as possible to make the bridge move in and out from the initial contact should have you in a happy place. Lessons from people like Caterina Lichtenberg, Chris Acquavella etc. would go a long way to revealing what's possible with good technique & in a manner which would compliment your guitar playing. I've been (re)learning from Chris A and he's a real exponent of the light touch to deliver a big full sound. He also isn't a product of just one approach which brings a breadth of techniques & repertoire to the table.
    The ergonomics of the mandolin will be important for a happy long term combination of both instruments, so it's worth reaching out to people like that who understand where you're coming from and can set you up properly early on.

    In terms of strings maybe try a set of Fisoma consort strings in medium.
    They have plenty of welly to drive my Davidson two point mandolin & the wound A string gives a great balance across the string tone & might appeal to your Jazz educated ear.
    Eoin



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  22. #18
    Registered User D.Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Action Height/String Gauge Hand Health

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    As you're coming at it with all your technique history on guitar maybe look at how the German school of mandolin thinking approach the holding and playing of their instruments. You shouldn't need heavy strings to drive the top of something like the Campanella. Technique which focusses on using as much of the energy as possible to make the bridge move in and out from the initial contact should have you in a happy place. Lessons from people like Caterina Lichtenberg, Chris Acquavella etc. would go a long way to revealing what's possible with good technique & in a manner which would compliment your guitar playing. I've been (re)learning from Chris A and he's a real exponent of the light touch to deliver a big full sound. He also isn't a product of just one approach which brings a breadth of techniques & repertoire to the table.
    The ergonomics of the mandolin will be important for a happy long term combination of both instruments, so it's worth reaching out to people like that who understand where you're coming from and can set you up properly early on.

    In terms of strings maybe try a set of Fisoma consort strings in medium.
    They have plenty of welly to drive my Davidson two point mandolin & the wound A string gives a great balance across the string tone & might appeal to your Jazz educated ear.
    Thank you for all the great points! I just signed up for Catarina's online course. Maybe one of these days I can take an in person lesson with her or Chris and get into the fine details of the technique more.

    I'll look into those strings too! Never tried a wound A!

    Doug
    2007 Campanella Due
    1906 G. Bauer

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