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Thread: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

  1. #1

    Default Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Group,

    I am attempting to restore what appears to me to be a fairly inexpensive Bowl Back Mandolin. The sentimental value of the mandolin far exceeds its monetary value. So far I have removed the fretboard, the tuning machines and the tone board of the mandolin. I really didn’t want to remove the tone board but it was made necessary because there are several slats that were separated and the person who made earlier repairs used newspaper to line the inside of the inside of the bowl. I have removed all of the original paper lining and will be regluing the slats next. My question is what is the proper kind of paper to use to line the inside of the bowl. From looking at other threads on this forum I do know that whatever is the proper paper, it should be acid free.

    Sal

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    Likes quaint instruments poul hansen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Try to find the thread where a guy went to Italy to make a bowlback, he is certain to know what kind of paper, although I once saw a bowlback with a paperlining made of musicscore paper. It looked fantastic.
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    Registered User Denis Kearns's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Aren’t some lined with cloth?

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Some are lined with cloth and some (often the Roman ones) are lined with wood shavings. I believe that the main purpose was to keep the bowl from sticking to the form when gluing the ribs. I don’t know if it really makes a difference to use archival quality acid-free paper or not.

    Sal: when you say you removed the tone board do you mean the actual top of the mandolin? I was a bit confused because you mention removing the tone board in order to fix the ribs.
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    I even seen a gold- colored paper used in Greek bouzouki bowls, almost looked like Christmas wrapping.

    There may be a functional aspect of the linings, adding a bit more reinforcement to the rib joints.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Group,

    Jim, Yes, I meant that I removed the top of the mandolin. So many of the slats were separating and out of alignment that it appeared to me that the only way to properly repair the bowl was to attack it from both the inside and out. Top came off fairly easily. From watching YouTube videos, it appears that the slats were glued in place first and then the paper was applied. Cloth makes sense but I have never seen it used. I am mainly following a YouTube Chanel by Georgeo Menon. It is in Italian but between the English subtitles and my ability to understand a little Italian, I follow it pretty well. I will be following up on the suggestions made by other members of the Group. Thank you all for the prompt responses.

    Sal

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Jim

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    As the lignin in wood gives off acids, using acid-free paper to line a bowl is pointless—it will deteriorate regardless.

    As DavidKOS says, the paper is definitely functional. Having worked as a picture framer, the kraft paper dust cover on the backs of frames serves a purpose besides keeping dust out: it strengthens the frame. Having paper glued to a bowl holds the staves in place, preventing a smaller bump from cracking the glue between the staves.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal View Post
    Group,

    Cloth makes sense but I have never seen it used.
    I have seen cloth used - and I have seen old mandolins where the cloth has deteriorated into shreddy fibers, too.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Here's the link to Sebastiaan's thread on his adventure in Napoli building a bowlback.

    In message #19 he begins his discussion of using a decorative paper to line the bowl, which in this case, at least, answers the question as to whether the lining (paper, cloth, wood) was used as a slip-sheet between the mold and the bowl for easy release.

    As Diego G hints, I believe I have seen references (maybe even photos) of the paper lining used for such purposes, but obviously have no first hand experience with it.

    But many if not most Chicago bowls don't have such a lining, so if a slip-sheet was used it could have been disposable. Would be kind of a fussy thing to make if it weren't adhered to the bowl, though.

    There's no reason to assume that it couldn't have been used with both intentions--decorative and functional.

    The music sheets that Sebastiaan used do look pretty great in there.

    The debate continues (maybe in that thread, too?) however on the structural performance of the paper in reinforcing the bowl stave-to-stave joints.

    If properly / consistently adhered, I don't see how it wouldn't provide something.

    Sal, I've repaired a lot of bowlback stave separations from the outside but there were a few that very likely would have been beneficial to have had access to the inside as well.

    Why not share a few photos of your repair process if you might?

    There are many folks here who would enjoy and learn from your adventure as well.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    I don't really see how paper would work as a release layer over the mold since glue would inevitably leak through it. Nor do I see how you could achieve a neat paper lining if it was used in this way. It's hard enough to get perfect glue joints between the staves without trying to simultaneously glue the stave neatly to a paper layer below without air bubbles and wrinkles. Anyway, wax or similar works perfectly well to prevent the staves sticking to the form.

    I think paper linings were used partly to strengthen the joints and partly to hide imperfections/burn marks etc. inside the bowl.

    If I were to use paper I'd look for a strong paper with long fibres, like some Japanese art papers. But I think the Roman technique is superior. Wood shavings are stronger than paper and look very nice.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    So.... the last one I took apart and relined had paper-over-cloth, and when I say cloth, think more like gauze. The paper seems to be whatever they had to hand, and was often quite badly applied to be honest.

    If you're going wood strips, then any suitable veneer thickness wood will work... use small strips, with a join down the centre line - without that it will pull away as it dries (don't ask me how I know!). Paradoxically, small strips are faster and neater to apply than larger pieces.

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  18. #13

    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    A loose weave, like gauze, can stretch, and therefore conform to a curved surface. Paper can’t, and for that reason, can only bend in one plane. A porous fabric, painted over with, say, thin glue, is traditional reinforcement in other areas of wood construction. It works very well, as in fiberglass cloth layups. I’m of the contingent that thinks any lining adds substantially to the strength of those really thin stave glue joints. My eclectic collection shows fabric in all; ones with paper might have fabric under. The Oscar Schmidts, from Jersey, have odd partial linings in black fabric.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    A loose weave, like gauze, can stretch, and therefore conform to a curved surface. Paper can’t, and for that reason, can only bend in one plane. A porous fabric, painted over with, say, thin glue, is traditional reinforcement in other areas of wood construction. It works very well, as in fiberglass cloth layups. I’m of the contingent that thinks any lining adds substantially to the strength of those really thin stave glue joints. My eclectic collection shows fabric in all; ones with paper might have fabric under. The Oscar Schmidts, from Jersey, have odd partial linings in black fabric.
    Certain papers when wet, like with glue, can conform to mild curves. I've repaired some mandolin and oud bodies with that approach.

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  21. #15

    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Wallpaper was often used by the makers. It's thick, has entertaining patterns and does the job well. Vintage wallpaper rolls still can be bought and if I was redoing an old bowlback, I'd use it. Fancy Calace models had the gold foil paper, similar to the inner wraps found in old cigarette packs. Not sure if modern ones still have it. I haven't opened a cigarette pack in 20 last years.

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  23. #16

    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    I would think that, if you want the paper lining to be reasonably attractive and provide some reinforcement of the stave joints, you might consider a parchment lining.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by tom.gibson View Post
    I don't really see how paper would work as a release layer over the mold since glue would inevitably leak through it. Nor do I see how you could achieve a neat paper lining if it was used in this way. It's hard enough to get perfect glue joints between the staves without trying to simultaneously glue the stave neatly to a paper layer below without air bubbles and wrinkles. Anyway, wax or similar works perfectly well to prevent the staves sticking to the form.

    I think paper linings were used partly to strengthen the joints and partly to hide imperfections/burn marks etc. inside the bowl.

    If I were to use paper I'd look for a strong paper with long fibres, like some Japanese art papers. But I think the Roman technique is superior. Wood shavings are stronger than paper and look very nice.

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    No argument from me, Tom, but you'd have to get pretty sloppy with your glue to have it 'soak through the paper' and adhere to the wood mold.

    I don't know where the "slip sheet" idea first appeared around here, but it's been bouncing around for awhile. Maybe from some of the posts showing old photos from the L+H works in Chicago with piles of bowlbacks under construction?

    It's worth noting that the paper / cloth / wood lining was rarely used on US made bowls of the era.

    Just as Victor says, I've seen linings made of material that does look quite like wallpaper: thicker and very tough.

    Decorative and performative makes the most sense to me, too.

    Oh, and kudos for you, Victor, for laying off the lung darts....

    Mick
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Some photos for illustration of Calace 1922 (parchment paper), Calmencita (Calace copy 1926 - satin liner), Stridente (parchment paper) techniques.
    Lining is glued in place after building the bowl as evidenced by the glue smears, most obviously in the Stridente.
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    materials are scored & cut to shape to bowls in all cases.
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    in the case of Calace the heating iron has been used to apply heat at regular intervals & the labels are also scored & cut to fit bowl shape and liner applied in sections, bottom to top (overlaps)
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    Eoin



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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    Fancy Calace models had the gold foil paper, similar to the inner wraps found in old cigarette packs.
    That's a lot like the lining I've seen in certain Greek bouzoukis.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    It might be partly my fault and the discussion here makes me think that I was not right in promoting that opinion of the paper used to release the bowl from the form. However, I must have heard it somewhere back than and also possibly may have come to that conclusion after seeing sites describing the forms used for building these.

    Actually, a luthier I know in Connecticut showed me an original Martin bowl form with multiple pinholes to hold the strips while gluing. This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with lining the bowls.
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Here's a couple images from the files...one using large pushpins as Jim describes.

    The other, a rather ingenious device, the image of which is entitled "Martin Bowlback Jig".

    You can see by the time stamp on the photo how old the picture is, so I offer no certainty about the veracity of the title.

    It is a clever device, though.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Here is a photo of a bowl and explanation from my visit to the Martin Museum in 2013.

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Strange that they would feature the FRONT side of that mold in the display, Jim.

    Maybe you could see the business side of it from around back of the vitrine?


    Not to argue with the museum folks, but you could CNC mill up that mold today in a rather straightforward manner.

    Then use a multi axis mill to locate and drill all the pin locations in advance.

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  37. #24

    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    The placard just says assembling the staves is tedious, not making the mold, but I don’t like terming it tedious, in comparison with most other tasks in that factory; word choice. Showing the bottom of the mold is interesting too, as the clever clamping jig shown requires that the mold be positively located to take side pressures, hence the dowel holes. The mold being hollowed also implies that after assembly, it would be removed to a sanding station and needed to be lighter. The bowl could not be sanded in the pivoting clamping jig. Everything for a reason.
    Yes, molds, jigs, and mandolins themselves can be easily made with machine tools, and I was thinking that the old Martin clamping jig today would be automated with very little change in design. Very likely, where mass production of bowl backs continued longer, say in Japan, the machinery might be more modern overall.
    Right about the time phonographs came on the scene, and all things mechanical defined technology, there were also successful attempts to automate the playing of instruments as well!

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    Default Re: Paper Lining for Bowl Back Mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    The placard just says assembling the staves is tedious, not making the mold, but I don’t like terming it tedious, in comparison with most other tasks in that factory; word choice. Showing the bottom of the mold is interesting too, as the clever clamping jig shown requires that the mold be positively located to take side pressures, hence the dowel holes. The mold being hollowed also implies that after assembly, it would be removed to a sanding station and needed to be lighter. The bowl could not be sanded in the pivoting clamping jig. Everything for a reason.
    Yes, molds, jigs, and mandolins themselves can be easily made with machine tools, and I was thinking that the old Martin clamping jig today would be automated with very little change in design. Very likely, where mass production of bowl backs continued longer, say in Japan, the machinery might be more modern overall.
    Right about the time phonographs came on the scene, and all things mechanical defined technology, there were also successful attempts to automate the playing of instruments as well!
    I don't think these two jigs are so contradictory in their performance, Richard. They might well have worked together.

    I interpret those holes as locator pin locations. We use them all the time in the shop with current CNC milling practices, but they didn't come from nowhere.
    If you look at the pivoting clamp jig base, there are also locator holes...albeit a different pattern.

    If the bowl staves were while still on the mold for the sanding operation, the mold and staves could be easily removed from the clamping base.

    I don't think there is such complexity in this. Just the evolution of fixture design in relation to tool pathing. We do it all the time.

    It's hard to imagine those small areas removed from the Martin exhbit bowl simple to "lighten" the bowl.....if so, the pattern would surely have been different..and the mold formed differently.

    To my eye, they were likely distributed and shaped to provide some positioning for clamping...perhaps for the overlay 'skirts' that could be facilitated by freeing the mold from its base.

    The old photos from the L+H factory posted here, give a tantalizing hint to the mass production methods they used. Not sure how that translates into the Martin folks.

    It would be great to have a dedicated "bowlback /luthery construction of note" thread as a more central location for all these fascinating photos and conversation.

    Mick
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