About volumes in the mandoliini family instruments

[Tintin]

Hi,

Im new here and a complete noob in the mandolin world. Actually, I have'nt even started yet. But I have been playing guitar, and especially classical guitar, for a long time and recently started to play in a trio with a flautist and a pianist. Classical guitar with piano can be a bit tricky because both instruments work similarly but obviously piano is much louder.

I have also wanted to take on a new instrument but with something that isnt completely out of my comfort zone. I also really like folk music so in the past couple of weeks I have really thought about buying a mandolin. I recon I Will get a mandolin regardless at some point but my question that I right now have in my mind is this:

How loud are the instruments in mandolin family? Especially the mandola and the mandocello? For the Trio I have thought that with a mandola I could play the second melody as the flute would be the first, and similarly with the mandocello I could play the cello lines. Of course you can play anything with anything but the amount of music written originally for eg. Piano, violin and Viola or piano, violin and cello is a lot.

With classical guitar I can play second melody and/or accompany but the volume has to be taken in account for the piano then. My intuition regardin the mandolin family is that because they have double coarses and the strings are metal they would have more projection and clarity for the melody (or celloish bass lines) than nylon string guitar but I havnt really found an answer to this question, even with some "clever" googleing.

One other problem is that I liven in finland and I havnt found a mandocello here anywhere that I might test to hear the volume myself.

So Im asking a bit beforehand here if it would lead me quicker to a suitable instrument of the mandolin family.

[DavidKOS]

Some mandolins are louder and/or project better than others.

Most mandolins are lower in dynamic level than many classical instruments - but good classical players can control their dynamics quite a bit and should be able to balance with a good mandolin for chamber music.

Plus, instruments like piano can do things like close the lid!

As for the mandocello, it can be full and rich sounding but would not project quite as well as a cello played loudly.

Your classical guitar is a good paradigm, as mandolins and guitars are a common ensemble combination. The metal strings do project, but not as much more than a well made classical guitar as one would think.

Any good mandolin or mandocello should be able to find a balance with sensitively played piano, flute and classical guitar. I wouldn't try to play with a typical brass quintet though!

[pops1]

Not to talk you out of a mandolin, but have you thought of putting a pickup in your guitar and using a small amp to balance with the piano. Classical guitars sound better that steel strings with a pickkup. A transducer inside won't change your acoustic sound, but will help your volume. I knew a guitar player who played with a fiddle, he had a light touch and played with a small amp to give just a small boost to balance with the fiddle. It sounded great. Low volume sounds very acoustic. Of course I think you should still get a mandolin, or mandolin family instrument.

[mandocello8]

Very loud mandolins do exist (I have two, a 1890-ies mandolinetto and a 1918 gibson a-4; several people at the bluegrass club have mandolins that are even louder), large mandolins can also be loud (my japanese-made mandocello will be very loud again, waiting for neck repair now; my Bruce Weber pancake octave mandolin is quite loud, cuts through everything at celtic and bluegrass jams). Of course one has to use the right pick to get the volume, I use Michel Wegen Trimus 250 picks. https://www.wegenpicks.com/

But beware, mandolin loudness is not expressed in decibels and megawatts. Two things are important. (1) can the listener hear you (yes, most mandolins cut through the band and are easy to hear). (2) can you hear yourself. if you cannot hear yourself, you cannot play. and here many mandolins fall flat. I only have two that I can reliably hear even in the most noisy places (think Irish bar on St.Patrick's day), the Bruce Weber octave mandolin and a no-name, no-brand bowl-back (which sadly explosively self-disassembled, now awaiting reassembly, photos posted on this forum). As opposite example, I have a Portuguese-build pancake mandolin, it is loud, but useless in noisy places, all projection is forward, I can barely hear what I am playing. (some new mandolins have a player-facing sound port to help with this problem).

If you wonder how your mandolin + piano duet could sound, as likely as not it will be as good or better than many examples on youtube:
- bowl back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtFg64qKls8
- street buskers, pancake mandolin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wcm0GjpWIg
- sousa piece - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB-D6N7uLPE
- modern gibson mandolin - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVkAQlybLT8

Good luck!

[Tintin]

Thanks for your replies. I think its safe to say that there are a lot of spread among volumes of mandolins but the middle is somwhere around the same loudness as a classical guitar. So all things considering I think I Will get the mandocello just for the mandocello. If it suits to the trio, great, if not well then I still have a new instrument to practice and learn. And couple of models I have found has mic and a preamp so that basically means that there really are no volume problems.

[Jim Garber]

Frankly, unless you have your heart set on a mandocello I think either mandolin or mandola would make more sense for your trio. The range of the mandocello would correspond to the left hand of the piano which I assume has the more of the bass role in the trio. So I would think the mandocello would conflict with the piano depending on the arrangement.

Also bear in mind that the term mandola means different things depending on where you live. In North America mandolas are tuned and play in viola range. In Europe most mandolas are tuned one octave below the mandolin. In NA they would be called octave mandolins.

[mandocello8]

@tintin, you will love a big mandolin, bigger is better. but beware that octaves and mandocello are hard on the hands - double strings with fairly high action. about similar to 12-string guitar. so before you jump, try to finger a 12-string guitar to see if size and general feeling is okey. also some Nordic builders put nylon strings on the low strings, I did not try it myself, but it must be very easy on fingers (Marcy Marxer cello banjo easy) and very resonant (classical guitar resonant).

[meow-n-dolin]

[QUOTE=Jim Garber;1903119]Frankly, unless you have your heart set on a mandocello I think either mandolin or mandola would make more sense for your trio.

I agree with this. I play a bit (very little) classical guitar. I own the entire mandolin "family." I might lean more towards the mandola -- it has a range roughly that of that of the guitar.

[Tintin]

@meow-n-dolin and @Jim Garber, you might be right. I just love the sound of a mandocello what I have been able to hear from youtube, but the mandola (viola) with the flute (violin) would be more suited for the trio I was describing in earlier post. But really I think the right answer is to get both eventually. There are a bit more options regarding mandolas which is good. I definitely don't want to get too cheap instrument and in 6 months have the need to uprgrade so in my budget I think I could get a better mandola than a mandocello.

I think I need to do one more time some indepth introspection and then stop fussing about and order my first mandolin. Thanks for all the quick input and perspective you have given me. I will let you know what I decided in due time.

[Beanzy]

Paul Hathway here in the UK has an interesting instrument based on a Finnish luthier's design ideas https://www.paulhathway.com/nordic-mandola/
He calls it the Nordic Mandola & it's based on work by Christer Adin https://christeradin.wixsite.com/chr...in/blank-c1dbx & Helge Ekvall

Maybe reach out to Magnus Zetterlund https://www.mandolincafe.com/mp3/mp3/zetterlund.mp3 for some more local perspectives on which way might be good for you? http://www.magnuszetterlund.com/

[Jim Garber]

The mandola in octave mandolin tuning might be a good choice since you would have a deeper tone in general but could also capo up for the higher ranges.

This is the only luthier listed in Finland on our site but it looks like he makes some nice instruments: http://www.wetterstrand.org/acoustic.php

Actually that carved top cittern looks especially promising and the extra course might be just what would work nicely in your trio. http://www.wetterstrand.org/acoustic.php?ePageID=11

[meow-n-dolin]

@meow-n-dolin and @Jim Garber, you might be right. I just love the sound of a mandocello what I have been able to hear from youtube, but the mandola (viola) with the flute (violin) would be more suited for the trio I was describing in earlier post. But really I think the right answer is to get both eventually. There are a bit more options regarding mandolas which is good. I definitely don't want to get too cheap instrument and in 6 months have the need to uprgrade so in my budget I think I could get a better mandola than a mandocello.

I think I need to do one more time some indepth introspection and then stop fussing about and order my first mandolin. Thanks for all the quick input and perspective you have given me. I will let you know what I decided in due time.

I currently play the Eastman MDA315 mandola. It is quite a nice instrument. I also owned the very sweet 915 mandola, (IIRC), which was quite a pretty instrument, though in tone it was not noticeably better than the one I have now (I lost that one in a fire). I also owned a TC Mandola. Quite acceptable, but I prefer the Eastman. And the MDA315 is less than half the price of Eastman's mandocellos (I have owned both the F-hole and Oval-hole models of those, as well).

Most of all -- have fun!!

[dhergert]

The way a person picks the mandolin can make a huge difference in volume. The angle of the pick and pressure applied with the pick are the primary controls that the player has.

[Sue Rieter]

Very loud mandolins do exist (I have two, a 1890-ies mandolinetto and a 1918 gibson a-4 ...

I also have a turn of the century mandolinetto. It is very loud. I took it over to my brother's last Thanksgiving, and, showing it to him in the kitchen, people two rooms over could hear it easily.

[DougC]

Tintin may consider the type of folk music and determine what mandolin family instrument is commonly used.