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Thread: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

  1. #1
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    Default B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    if Bb diminished 7 is

    Abb ( G)
    Db - or C#
    Fb or E
    Bb

    and C# diminished is

    Bb
    G
    E
    C#

    they are the same tones - just stacked differently

    so in "Lady Be Good" it goes from G to Bb dim 7

    it also goes from C to C# dim 7

    it doesn't make sense to use the same voicing for both cords

    i was using 3-2-4-0 or 3-2-4x for Bb dim 7 ( coming from G/B 4-0-2-3)

    but I see 6-5-7-6 is a popular voicing

    6-5-7-6 also works for C# dim 7 so not sure what voicing to use there

    the cord change is C to C#dim 7 to G
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Does this help?

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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Check out the intro to this song. Different voicings of the same dim. chord up and down the neck. (Of course with guitar you have more neck to work with). Each note is three half-steps apart from the next one so sliding up or down three frets gives you the same chord with a different voicing.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    if Bb diminished 7 is

    Abb ( G)
    Db - or C#
    Fb or E
    Bb

    and C# diminished is

    Bb
    G
    E
    C#

    they are the same tones - just stacked differently

    so in "Lady Be Good" it goes from G to Bb dim 7

    it also goes from C to C# dim 7

    it doesn't make sense to use the same voicing for both cords

    i was using 3-2-4-0 or 3-2-4x for Bb dim 7 ( coming from G/B 4-0-2-3)

    but I see 6-5-7-6 is a popular voicing

    6-5-7-6 also works for C# dim 7 so not sure what voicing to use there

    the cord change is C to C#dim 7 to G
    The naming of diminished chords should be based on the musical use and the chord before it and the chord after it.

    Most fake books or lead sheets do not always follow a logical pattern in naming these dim7 chords, though.

    I'd like to know which chart you are using - some of the lead sheets vary.

    This one uses G to G#o7 to Am7 , which is a correctly named usage showing the chromatic root movement C-C#-D:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also, The Cmaj7 to C#o7 to Gmaj7 makes sense if the Gmaj7 is played as Gmaj7/D.
    Last edited by DavidKOS; May-02-2023 at 8:12am.

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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    God Bless Banjo Ben and Penny, thanks Jim

    as they said some of the simpler 3 finger shapes are just not interesting chords
    also as they talked about Diminished and Diminished 7 are intended as "transition chords" between 5 and 1 or 4 and 1 and so on

    Jaycat - I often find guitar changes work better on mandola, not sure why. Mandolin needs to hang closer to the melody in my ear?

    So I think to find the correct fingering I need to follow the direction of the music (which note of the chord is moving) and then find the chords that speak to those changes, as ergonomically as possible.

    Or I could just try to find a video of Jethro or Don Steinberg playing Lady Be Good and copy that.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    The naming of diminished chords should be based on the musical use and the chord before it and the chord after it.

    Most fake books or lead sheets do not always follow a logical pattern in naming these dim7 chords, though.

    I'd like to know which chart you are using - some of the lead sheets vary.

    This one uses G to G#o7 to Amy , which is a correctly named useage:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LBG.jpeg 
Views:	53 
Size:	284.4 KB 
ID:	207342
    Thanks David - I am using the Django Fake book, it uses more Bb dim 7 then the one you have but bars 17 -18-19 is where I am searching for better fingering
    C-C#dim7- G
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Looks like we were posting at the same time!

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    Or I could just try to find a video of Jethro or Don Steinberg playing Lady Be Good and copy that.
    Well, you can't go wrong learning from those two players either.

    As for the version in the Django fakebook, the bass notes make a difference:

    G / G/B Bbo7 / Am7

    It's the choice of using that G chord over B bass then moving down chromatically to Am7 rather than moving up from G to G# to A in the bass.

    The last measures that are a turnaround in the Django fakebook version do use G -G#o7 -Am7.

    Like I said before, not all lead sheets agree!

    In addition, the Django fakebook was mostly aimed at guitar players that have more options in chord voicings, particularly in terms of the rhythm guitar players. On mandolin, we have to adapt to our instrument. When playing Manouche style jazz, I usually play guitar.

    As for a better fingering for C-C#dim7- G, perhaps this would work:

    C - 5578 C#o7 - 6576 - G/D - 7557

    Take care, David

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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Thanks - I agree for the G/B to Bb0 7 -walk down
    for the C C#07 G walk up

    so I probably should not use 6576 for Bb0 7

    I tend to like the Django Fake book arrangements, but then again I haven't really investigated a lot of other jazz standard books.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    I think this is kind of working for C C#07 G

    3 3 3
    3 4 2
    2 2 5
    0 3 4

    for the G/B Bb07 A-7

    3 3 3
    2 4 3
    5 2 2
    4 3 2

    but here I am using the same fingering for both Bb07 and C#07

    and for the G G#07 A-7

    3 4 5
    2 5 3
    5 3 5
    4 4 5

    not sure about that A-7

    the rest of the chords are fairly straightforward, though I watched Don Steinberg and he uses many different chord forms in different parts of the tune.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    ... G to G#o7 to Am7 , which is a correctly named usage showing the chromatic root movement ...
    This might help someone's understanding, or might not ...

    It took me several (self-taught) decades to realize that, in most situations that applied to me, the stated "diminished" chord was simply a one-fret-up movement of the preceding major chord's root note, leading into (some note of) the following chord. In other words, the other notes (3 & 5) of the preceding major chord don't change or move at all, they simply stay in place while the root implies upward motion.

    One might think that the chord doesn't get "diminished" - its "other" notes just sit there (from the prior major chord) while its root moves toward the next goal! (PLEASE realize that this is just my own unorthodox thinking!!)

    In David's example of G to G# to A, that would be movement (in key of G) from the I chord up toward the IIm. In practice, that "goal" A note is just as often the 5 note of the V chord (D7 in key of G). Hey, still sounds good to me!

    In my (relatively limited) musical word, that realization went a long way to de-mystifying the occasional "dim".
    Last edited by EdHanrahan; May-02-2023 at 1:27pm.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    This might help someone's understanding, or might not ...

    It took me several (self-taught) decades to realize that, in most situations that applied to me, the stated "diminished" chord was simply a one-fret-up movement of the preceding major chord's root note, leading into (some note of) the following chord. In other words, the other notes (3 & 5) of the preceding major chord don't change or move at all, they simply stay in place while the root implies upward motion.

    One might think that the chord doesn't get "diminished" - its "other" notes just sit there (from the prior major chord) while its root moves toward the next goal! (PLEASE realize that this is just my own unorthodox thinking!!)

    In David's example of G to G# to A, that would be movement (in key of G) from the I chord up toward the IIm. In practice, that "goal" A note is just as often the 5 note of the V7 (D7) chord. Hey, still sounds good to me!

    In my (relatively limited) musical word, that realization went a long way to de-mystifying the occasional "dim".
    Banjo Ben and Penny talked about that in thier video-and yes its true, just raise the root and leave the 3rd and 5th and you are diminished ( as opposed to leave the root and move the 3rd and 5th down a half step) the double flat 7th is really a major 6th from the root.

    and I messed around with that, but in some cases the chords were not "interesting" enough? Or its not enough of a tonal shift to emphasize the melodic change.
    it does work some of the time.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    My own ignorant take on it -

    Dim7s are often used as passing chords. For example, in the last half of the second measure of a fast-change blues, when the IV moves to the I. There’s (almost?) always an obvious connecting note for the chords on either side of the diminished, a half-step from either. I just grab the closest dim7 which has that note and don’t worry about it. It just occurred to me that when I’m playing tenor banjo in a trad band, I tend to voice that on the high string, but when I’m playing rhythm guitar on a soul ballad (say, “Drown in My Own Tears”) I tend to voice it in the lower notes. Huh.
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    Default Re: B flat diminished 7 vrs. C# diminished 7

    I was looking through an old Dix Bruce Gypsy swing book I had and he has the C C#07 change as

    0 0
    3 4
    2 2
    5 3

    for Lady Be Good in the context of the tune I am not hearing that as a "strong" transition, maybe its not supposed to be?
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