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Thread: Where to start

  1. #1
    Michael Bauer mikbau's Avatar
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    Default Where to start

    Hello all

    I joined the site a number of years ago, but a lot of life things got in the way. I have a question on direction, but first, a little about me: I've had instruments around most of my teenage and adult life - mostly guitars. I was too lazy or uninspired to get good with any of them. In an incident of sheer luck, I fell in to playing percussion when I was almost 40 - turns out I was pretty good at it and I have excellent time. I've played with a number of local songwriters/bands, and I've recorded albums with a few folks. I've ended up as a default band leader in some instances as I'm pretty good with arrangements - I can hear what sounds good, even if I can't play it. A few years back I learned a couple of simple parts on Mandolin for a songwriter I was playing with, but didn't progress much beyond that.

    Fast forward to today - there's a friend I played with in a band, he and I are going to start doing some duo shows. I'm making the move from percussion to mandolin for this project, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on direction - I know enough theory to be dangerous (so not much) and as I've started learning his songs (think songwriter type songs) I've found I'm approaching them like a rhythm guitar player - find the chords and come up with a backing arrangement. I'd like to be able to do more than that, and he's given me all the room I want to come up with my own arrangements.

    I've done a ton of reading here about where people start with lessons (in person and online) and I've no reason to believe that my background makes me unique, but maybe it does. Where I struggle is I'll head down rabbit holes on lesson sites and youtube and I'm sure I'm getting ahead of myself but not hooking all the pieces together. And I suppose that leads to frustration.

    I may not have the bandwidth for in person lessons at the moment, so I'd probably be looking at either remote Zoom sessions or one of the online sites. I'd just be curious to hear from the collective what might be a good route. I'd really like to dedicate the effort and get good. I just need to find a away that works for me.

    If you managed to read this far, thank you, and I appreciate any thoughts and insight you may have.

    Michael

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  3. #2

    Default Re: Where to start

    I think one of the biggest things that gets overlooked is right hand technique. Making sure you are holding the pick right and correctly picking up and down in time. If you haven’t spent some time just playing with a metronome doing right hand technique you may want to look into that. It is really where much of the tone, emotion, and soul of the music comes from. As a rhythm player I would think it would resonate with you.

    Another thing that I found truly invaluable to opening up my knowledge of the fingerboard is to understand double stops. These work for melody lines, rhythm ideas, and fills. This free e-book helped me out immensely. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=41606&d=1240508441

    If you have your right hand sorted and you know different ways to approach the fingerboard I would just work out finding the melody lines of your repertoire out of double stop or chordal positions. That may be a bit advanced but could be something to strive for.

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  5. #3
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    The singer/songwriter gigs can be pretty easy, or can be really tough, depending on how your partner plays and what he’s doing. It can be really tough to accompany a “troubadour” who prefers loose ballads and doesn’t establish a steady rhythm. If, on the other hand, he is laying down a rock-solid rhythm with his guitar it can be relatively easy. In the latter case, you can be free to play rhythm, play arpeggios, play the melody line, play fills between vocal phrases, noodle around in the pentatonics, etc.

    If the guy is more of a lone troubadour who relies mostly on his vocals and plays loose with the rhythm, you have to be very careful not to step on him with your own rhythm playing in order to avoid awful clashes. In that case, the challenge is to be able to augment him with fills, melody, maybe some arpeggios and basically flavouring with lead work. The better you know his material the better you can add to it without being too bored or repetitive. It’s just tougher when you can’t very well fall back on your rhythm playing.

    There are a lot of excellent resources available these days including zoom & Skype lessons from great teachers and pros. It’s always best to have a clear idea of your goals when engaging with a teacher. In your case, I’ll repeat that the better you know your partner’s material, the more you’ll gain from any tutoring in the long run. Learning or refreshing on the basics can always be good, and learning music theory and general exercises will be fruitful for pretty much anyone, but learning to complement original material … there are a lot of variables to consider.

    Pete Martin is a member here who offers online lessons, as many do, but in addition he has numerous free courses via video and written material, including a course on practical music theory for mandolin and a course on learning to improvise. There are threads on these here in this section, he adds more to them occasionally, check them out and see if maybe they’re a help to you.
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  7. #4
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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  8. #5
    Michael Bauer mikbau's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    The singer/songwriter gigs can be pretty easy, or can be really tough, depending on how your partner plays and what he’s doing. It can be really tough to accompany a “troubadour” who prefers loose ballads and doesn’t establish a steady rhythm. If, on the other hand, he is laying down a rock-solid rhythm with his guitar it can be relatively easy. In the latter case, you can be free to play rhythm, play arpeggios, play the melody line, play fills between vocal phrases, noodle around in the pentatonics, etc.

    If the guy is more of a lone troubadour who relies mostly on his vocals and plays loose with the rhythm, you have to be very careful not to step on him with your own rhythm playing in order to avoid awful clashes. In that case, the challenge is to be able to augment him with fills, melody, maybe some arpeggios and basically flavouring with lead work. The better you know his material the better you can add to it without being too bored or repetitive. It’s just tougher when you can’t very well fall back on your rhythm playing.

    There are a lot of excellent resources available these days including zoom & Skype lessons from great teachers and pros. It’s always best to have a clear idea of your goals when engaging with a teacher. In your case, I’ll repeat that the better you know your partner’s material, the more you’ll gain from any tutoring in the long run. Learning or refreshing on the basics can always be good, and learning music theory and general exercises will be fruitful for pretty much anyone, but learning to complement original material … there are a lot of variables to consider.

    Pete Martin is a member here who offers online lessons, as many do, but in addition he has numerous free courses via video and written material, including a course on practical music theory for mandolin and a course on learning to improvise. There are threads on these here in this section, he adds more to them occasionally, check them out and see if maybe they’re a help to you.
    It's a great call out about his style - it's interesting because he's never been what I would consider a "straight ahead" player. I've actually worked with him a lot on some of his arrangements because sometimes he does head in to troubadour mode where his playing is a lot more loose from a rhythm perspective. As a percussionist, I played with a number of songwriters who wouldn't follow me, I had to listen and follow them - so I'm fairly adept at it. He's not that way intentionally, it's just sometimes his playing is, I don't know, a bit non linear? That said, if I'm acting as the snare with the mandolin, he'll follow just fine.

    I'll definitely have that as a goal if/when I link up with an instructor. Right now I'm thinking about ArtistWorks or Peghead Nation just to get some of the fundamentals down as that's something I've never done. I just picked up the thing and learned a few bits. I'd like to get to know it inside and out, so it's a matter of keeping on a path to do that. As I've looked at a lot of free lessons online, it's often just been a matter of where to start and what path to keep on so my building blocks are consistent.

  9. #6
    not a donut Kevin Winn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    I can recommend Sharon Gilchrist's lessons on Peghead Nation. They are primarily bluegrass focused, but a great way to get to know the fretboard and start putting together chord-based melodies.
    "Keep your hat on, we may end up miles from here..." - Kurt Vonnegut

  10. #7
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Fiddle tunes, fiddle tunes and fiddle tunes!
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    Another tip, though more for intermediates:
    Along with right hand technique is coordination - very important when you play different rhythms.
    One example is playing tunes with different jig rhythms.

    Make sure the two hands are both playing the same rhythm!
    Otherwise you can get a sort of clipping effect on your notes played.




    Now, the OP has probably heard about these guys, but here's my main advice:

    Record ONE tune. Post the recording to SAW Social group here on MC.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/g...=67&styleid=15

    Don't record more than ONE tune!

  11. #8
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    Default Re: Where to start

    You know the mandolin is sometimes used "percussively" check out Sam Bush on "Short Trip Home" , its very advanced but being a percussionist that might be something to consider. As said above - the right hand is usually where players need the most guidance at the beginning, honestly I've been playing for at least 2 decades and still am working on my my right hand technique. Peghead nation is good place to start, its low pressure and if you just buy individual lessons very affordable. I have taken the more advance Sharon Gilchrist class, and they are great but very Bluegrass , Monroe style focused. Don Julan is good one to try, his style of teaching really focuses on "practicality" as opposed to virtuosity. If you can play the basic open chords fluently, hopefully that's enough to get started playing with your singer friend.
    fair warning this is very advanced playing

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  12. #9

    Default Re: Where to start

    Hi Michael, I see that you mentioned thinking about ArtistWorks in one of your posts. I actually signed up a few weeks ago. I think it's really cool. I signed up for the Mike Marshall one (Sierra Hull and Caterina Lichtenberg are the other options for mandolin). He's got a ton of stuff geared towards beginning mandolinists and, as you progress, he's got stuff for intermediate and advanced players. I also like it because it's not just bluegrass. He has stuff on classical, choro, jazz...pretty much you name it. Last thing I'll leave you with is that I was just on the site to practice and I see they are running a sale for $55 for 3 months (3 months is the minimum you have to purchase so there's no month to month with this). No financial incentives on my part here...just wanted to let you know that I think it's a good product. Good luck!

  13. #10
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    One of the best learning tools for mandolin are fiddle tunes IMO. These have everything you'd need to play just about any song - a distinct melody (usually based around a major scale or major pentatonic scale), chord changes, and improv potential. Pick a fiddle tune or two, then work it up in a few different ways with multiple voicings.

    Here's an example I did for Big Sciota a great fiddle tune in G. https://mattcbruno.com/2022/08/mando...wn-big-sciota/

    The more you learn these tunes by breaking them down and playing them in multiple ways, the more you'll learn the fretboard, chord voicings, scale positions, and etc. All things that make you a better player.

    For whether you need a teacher or not - personally, I don't think anyone really "needs" a teacher. There's so much information free online as well as tools like the Amazing Slower Downer that you can pretty much do everything on your own to a degree. That said, a teacher or coach can keep you accountable and help fix small mistakes in form before they become bigger things. If you have time for lessons, they can be great and should help you avoid creating bad habits. But if you don't, online lessons from Artistworks, Peghead, or other sources are pretty good anyway. Artistworks has the added benefit of the video share which can be nice.
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  14. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Good suggestions from excellent voices here, as usual. The only thing I can add is to not downplay your musical skills. Being a percussionist is excellent aspect that many other musicians skip over—the ability to keep a beat and also to play around with the beat in the context of different genres of music. As far as your arrangement and contribution to the duo while playing mandolin, just listen to as much mandolin music as you can and I will bet that you can absorb the influences. I highly suggest going outside the box and especially outside your region. Certainly listen to as many genres as you can including but not limited to bluegrass, old time ragtime, trad folk, Italian, French musette, swing, bop, classical, Brazilian choro and samba plus other musics that usually don't incorporate mandolin.
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  15. #12
    Michael Bauer mikbau's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Thanks everyone for the responses - lots of great info and content to listen to - some of which is way above my skill level for the moment. I'm thinking about basically starting from ground zero - there are a lot of things I never learned musically, it's all been a bunch of loosely associated bits and pieces to me. In my head I can often hear what would sound good but I've never learned an instrument well enough (aside from percussion) to translate and play it.

    I first really got in to the mandolin largely because of Steve Earle - so I suspect I'll be listing to a lot of his stuff more closely (I have a funny Steve Earle/Carters Guitars story, but that's for another day.) I also have a friend who plays mandolin and fiddle for popular alt+country band out of Austin. Hopefully next time they are through town I can sit with him - if nothing else, to get a chance to play his Rickenbacker mandos.

    I know there's a ton of online content out there but the reason I was considering something like ArtistWorks is that it's categorized in a way that everything builds upon what you learn - I easily chase down rabbit holes, and can get distracted. Since they are running a deal for $50 for three months, I may pull the trigger on that and see how it goes. I like the idea of getting some feedback from an instructor. I like how David Benedict lays out his videos - I've sent him a couple questions and I'm waiting to hear back.

    In the meantime, I really appreciate everyone's input!

    Michael

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    One thing to keep in mind. It takes about a decade to sound like you have been playing ten years. Just sayin...
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
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  18. #14
    Michael Bauer mikbau's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    One thing to keep in mind. It takes about a decade to sound like you have been playing ten years. Just sayin...
    I figured more like 15 years to sound like you've been playing for 10 :D

  19. #15
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where to start

    Might want to start with ergonomics

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