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Thread: Is this a Gibson?

  1. #1

    Default Is this a Gibson?

    I bought this mando from a very good friend who told me he bought it in the USA and that it was probably a demonstration model made for a trade fair. It plays and feels like an A4 in every aspect though obviously though it has the fleur-de-lis and the Gibson tailpiece it doesn't have the name/logo on the headstock. Any ideas?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    If any part of it was made by Gibson, it has been heavily re-worked.
    Looks to me like the instrument has a modern era finish, probably lacquer. The rosette is not the typical style for an A-4, and looks like it was made out of modern material rather than pre-war celluloid.

    I suspect either a plainer Gibson A model that has been conscientiously, but not entirely accurately restored; or a well made modern instrument that has had some liberties taken with the original design.

    See if there's a factory order number printed on the neck block.
    Pictures of the back and the back of the neck would be informative.
    Last edited by rcc56; May-03-2023 at 1:57pm.

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  4. #3
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Here are my H-2 and A-4. Even slightly out of focus, you can see the headstock on yours is wrong. You're right - it should say "The Gibson."
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    Looks to me like the instrument has a modern era finish, probably lacquer.
    Definitely.
    The rosette is not the typical style for an A-4, and looks like it was made out of modern material rather than pre-war celluloid.
    Do you say that because it's not sufficiently yellowed?

    Mike: here's a plainer A-style mandolin with the same type of rosette. A luthier could start with a mandolin like this one and upcycle it with a new fretboard, sunburst finish, and headplate. The presence of a factory order number on the neck block could tell us a lot. The trouble with the "demo model" story is that there's no reason Gibson would make such a thing that didn't conform to A4 specs. Gibson had a whole raft of "second line" instruments that were available for retailers to put different brands on, but the A4 wasn't one of them.

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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    It started life as a normal Gibson product. It's been modified possibly to do a repair or two or three. That headstock inlay is like a beacon in the night. I agree with Bob, get the FON off the headblock.

    The second lines came out in the 30's.

    I'm sure the real story isn't as glamorous as you were told.
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    Registered User Steve 2E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    I don't know if it's a Gibson or not, but I like the look. I'm no expert, but the the finish, the tuners and the possibly radiused fretboard look quite modern. I'd love to see more pictures. I know the headstock inlay is not historically accurate, but I like the look of the fleur-de-lis moved up without The Gibson inlay. How does it play and sound?

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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Martin: in short, nothing about the rosette rings looks like teens - twenties Gibson work to me-- the proportions, the color, possibly the material, and the edges.

    I wish I could give you more detail, but the most I can say, based on having many of these instruments pass over my workbench, is "it just don't look right."

    Also, every original A-4 I've ever seen had the fancier rosette with a wide center band surrounded by inner and outer bands with diagonal marquetry, like the instruments in journeybear's picture.

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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Looks like a later restoration of the mandolin. As to the trade show, maybe it was a lacquer trade show .

    What looks original: The general shape, sound hole inlay and double line "rosette" (not as fancy as some years), the lack of a trussrod. Lack of Gibson logo indicates an "A" model. Rosette looks ok to me. Looks like an early 20's late teens " A" .

    What changes to original: the obvious addition fleur-de-lis out of place, prob. a later A-4 fingerboard w 3rd fret dot (1930s), complete refinish w color and glossy lacquer, replacement tuners and bridge.

    Overall, looks good. Does it sound like an old A model? If it quacks like a duck then it must be a duck. Just a repaired duck. If it was in hand, some could guess if the refinish was a factory repair from a later period, But the headstock doesn't seem consistent with that. I Like it. It tells a story.

    compare to mandolin archive
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/61599

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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    I've got a couple of what I call "plain A" Gibsons from the late teens. They're my workhorses. The reason I have two is that I was playing so much and so hard in a band I was in going back ten years ago, that I was breaking strings left and right. I got a second one, same finish, to be my spare, to swap out mid-set and then change the string during break, so as not to lose momentum. They're both fine instruments - play well, sound great - but I was a bit bothered by them being, well, plain, with no headstock logo. I also was a bit bothered by people asking me if they were Gibsons - that gets old after you've been asked a few score times. So I got to thinking about having a luthier lay in a legitimate-looking MOP inlay, if it wouldn't cost too much - just to dress them up, and divert that question. But I got some feedback saying this could be seen as an attempt at fraud, to pass off the As as A-1s or such. Not my intent, and not a concern unless I were trying to sell them as such, which would never happen, as I've never sold nor even tried nor even wanted to sell an instrument, as they come to me to die - I mean, to live the rest of their lives. Even so, I let it drop.

    But I wonder whether the previous owner of this had had some sort of similar notion - just wanted to dress it up a bit. It clearly isn't some attempt to pass it off as more than what it is - well, except for that trade fair demo model tale, which is likely after-the-fact - without the effort to simulate standard decoration. That is a pretty nice-looking fleur-de-lis, after all. But then, there's that Florida ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  14. #10

    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    I got a second one, same finish, to be my spare, to swap out mid-set and then change the string during break, so as not to lose momentum.
    I think this is what separates the professionals from the amateurs. To keep the momentum, as you say. Nothing bugs me more than a musician stopping their set while they change a broken string, which can take at least 5 minutes, if not more. If you "had" the audience, you just lost them at that point. Just swap it out with another instrument and keep going -- show some respect for your audience's time.

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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    ... stopping their set while they change a broken string, which can take at least 5 minutes ...
    More than once, I've seen a solo act engage the audience w/ stories, maybe even take questions, WHILE changing out the broken string, and the momentum chuggs right along. (One may have been JD Souther?) What displays of professionalism!
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Quote Originally Posted by EdHanrahan View Post
    More than once, I've seen a solo act engage the audience w/ stories, maybe even take questions, WHILE changing out the broken string, and the momentum chuggs right along. (One may have been JD Souther?) What displays of professionalism!
    Maybe.....but a better bet is to keep playing, and finish the song with a broken string. Then switch out the instrument and deal with it during your break. (that's why "big" bands have roadies...) Anecdotes "might" work with a really, really big name who has you captive due to the ticket price, IMHO...

    To take "keep playing" to the ridiculous, Bob Shane of the Kingston Trio had an annoying gimmick he used during every set -- yes, every set. And, any video of them on television will show his trick. I say trick, more like a string breaking fetish -- Bob would have a certain string on his guitar "ready to break" not sure if he filed it down, cut it or what? Anyway, during the first part of the song, predictably, the string would break, he quickly removed it, pulled the correct string envelope from his back pocket, installed it, while the song is still playing, singing, etc. tuning up, and finishing the song with all strings (more or less) in tune. The first time I saw him do it, I thought it was super cool! After the 20th time, I knew it was part of his schtick, but I never could figure out why? Maybe he related a certain masculine prowess to being what he perceived as being a musician's musician? We probably will never know. As wonderful and great as the Kingston Trio were, you never see Bob's name of the polls of the top 100 (or 500) guitarists....so...(mine, neither, to be fair..)

    Anyway, we are just here to post our thoughts and I don't mean to offend. I'm an old grump and many, many things bug me on a daily basis. I have also mentioned on this forum, my confusion with buying a ticket to see Steve Earle play music and only to have him talk politics for 2 hours......but that's just me. Love the guy, BTW.

    I should conclude that I don't break strings, live or otherwise. I keep them so long they go dead. My electric guitar probably has 15-year old strings on it, I don't play it daily, but they are still rust free and tune up fine, so....

    On acoustic instruments, I do change them more often for better sound. YMMV.

    As far as the OP's question -- not sure, based on just the photos, but I'm guessing it is an old Gibson that has been refinished/modified...

  18. #13

    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    You mean the strings aren’t doubled just for reliability?

  19. #14
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is this a Gibson?

    Well, thanks for the compliment, though I'm not sure I consider myself a professional, more just a working musician (when I have work) being mindful of as many aspects of a situation as possible - including how audience members perceive the people on stage. I've tried to continue after breaking a string, but losing that tension puts all the other strings out of tune to the other instruments. Even taking the time to tune them took too long - although if I wasn't playing a whole lot on the next song, I could fix things in time for my next spot. Swapping out for the rest of the set seemed an expedient, albeit expensive, solution. Most of the time, when I replaced the broken string, all the other strings would still be at least pretty much in tune.

    As to those who keep playing, my favorite anecdote concerns John Hammond. One time my old jug band opened for him, and he put on a fabulous show. At one time he broke a string, but didn't stop. He didn't continue the song either, but kept a rhythm going by alternating between the two lowest strings with his thumb. Meanwhile, with his left hand, he fished out a packet of strings, and a new string, and strung it up and wound it up to tune - with that rhythm going and humming some bluesy licks. And it didn't take him much more than a minute. One of the most amazing things I've ever seen a musician do. Now that is a professional!
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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