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Thread: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

  1. #1
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    Default Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    I have read about this and searched and found a thread that discussed the existence of 2 Sam Bush Gibson mandolins. The thread was entitled something along the lines of “Sam Bush Master Model vs. Sam Bush F5.” It appears there were two different models bearing Sam’s name from that thread, if I read it correctly; but I came away a little confused. Someone referred to the Sam Bush Signature as opposed to the MM. I just bought a Sam Bush, still trying to get to the bottom of the vintage; because seller is the second owner, but thought it was early 2000, which I think would be Derrington, if I understand correctly; but Gibson says the serial number is a 2018. I’m waiting to hear back from a different division to clarify that issue. There is only one sticker inside, and it says “Master Model.” But, I see very few Sam Bushes listed on MM lists. Is that just because they are so differently spec’ed from Loar mandolins? That’s why I wanted it - Sam Bush is one of my favorite players, but honestly, I’m generally turned off by “signature” models of any kind. I got this one for a great price, less than a new F9 with with wide nut and radiused board, which I really wanted; so, I pulled the trigger, even with the ambiguity.

    Below are a couple of photos - one reason I got the good price was the rough finish removal job on the back of the neck. I don’t mind finish, don’t mind a “speed neck,” getting a good price based on that was good with me.

    So, it says Master Model on the label, obviously it is a MM; but is it just not considered one; or am I misunderstanding this whole situation? Sorry if that’s a dumb question, I can’t find any clear answer from Gibson or the interwebs, except the one post to which I referred, which thoroughly confused me.Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Interesting. I play a Bush model from 2003 with two labels. One in the bass f hole is the 'Master Model' label with hand written serial number. In the treble f hole is a signature label with date (in this case signed by Derrington). Hope someone can explain the discrepancy with what yours has/is. In any case your instrument looks like a beautiful mandolin.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    There are people that know more about this than me, but all modern gibsons have the master model label, but a genuine “Master Model” will have a serial number with a V in front of it. There were some genuine Sam Bush Master Models. A friend recently sold a Derrington signed master model with a v serial number at Carter over the last year.

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  5. #4

    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Yours is a recreation of Sam's "Hoss", a 1937 F-5 with the florida amputated fingerboard and is the original Sam Bush mandolin that Gibson debuted around 20 years ago. The other "Sam Bush" Master Model is a creation of a '33 or '34 Gibson F-5 that existed only in the Gibson catalog illustration. Its distinguishing feature is the end of the fingerboard was shortened (24 frets?) and has the bound moustash shape like a Gibson guitar headstock. This mandolin was introduced more recently (at Sam's suggestion) and has a varnish finish ( = Master Model) rather than lacquer and a much higher price tag ($8K vs. $15K). That is my understanding of the "Sam Bush" models.

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Quote Originally Posted by wbcohen View Post
    Interesting. I play a Bush model from 2003 with two labels. One in the bass f hole is the 'Master Model' label with hand written serial number. In the treble f hole is a signature label with date (in this case signed by Derrington). Hope someone can explain the discrepancy with what yours has/is. In any case your instrument looks like a beautiful mandolin.
    Thank you. So, am I understanding you correctly that the varnish vs lacquer is why people don’t consider this model a MM, despite the label saying it is? In Sam’s documentary (I think I found it through Prime a while back), he said Hoss originally had a lacquer finish, but John Hartford and Norman Blake scraped it off one night before Sam got it from Blake, so he had a luthier (whose name escapes me at the moment) refinish it with a varnish - so, I guess it would make sense that a reissue of the original mandolin that is Hoss would be nitro-lacquer, but a closer copy as it exists now would be varnish.

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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    I didn’t mean to quote, sorry.

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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Certain that there are some varnish instruments from the earlier years.The 03 I play is varnish. Not sure that that was the distinguishing feature of MM vs not (if there is one) and not sure the description above from lenf12 (no offense meant) describes what I am looking at...

  9. #8
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    All recent Gibson F5s are Master Models, including the "Fern" and the Sam Bush model. And it's written on the label. Funny but true, there are also those special, "real" (= closer to Loar specs) F5s, which are called "Master Model". These have a V- (as in "varnish") before the serial number. In the Mandozine interview, Charlie Derrington said this about the specs of the "real" Master Model, the "Master Model" Master Model, if you will:

    The differences are few, but significant, which I will list below:
    Sitka spruce for the Fern (Red for the Master)
    Modern glue for the Fern (hide for the Master)
    White binding for the Fern (ivoroid for the Master)
    Hard Eastern maple for the Fern (Sugar or hard Red for the Master)
    Fern inlay for the Fern (Flowerpot for the Master unless ordered differently)
    Maple or Walnut fingerboard extension for the Fern (Macassar Ebony for the Master)
    Reddish brown, mid-20s sunburst for the Fern and Dark Cremona or Light Tobacco burst for the Master.
    Thin lacquer finish for the Fern (20s style varnish and French polish for the Master. Which BTW, is the most labor intensive part of this instrument.) Standard rectangular case for the Fern (20s style Master Model case for the Master)
    Some other small differences are...patent date stamped bridge and finger-rest, silver plating, and Waverly tuners (for now) on the Master Model.



    As far as I understand it, there are only very few (3?) of these "Master Model" Master Models built as Sam Bush models. That is, those Sam Bush models should have Red Spruce, Sugar or Hard Red Maple, varnish finish and hide glue construction. Also, these mandolins should have the V- serial number.

    About the Bush model, Charlie said this:
    Some people like the Bush's better, some the Ferns, some the Masters, etc. etc. The only thing that would make the overall tone different (Danny and I believe, as we have had some discussions on why the Bush sounds different than the Fern) is the slight thinning we do on the top, around the F holes, but even more, the larger neck seems to affect the tonal aspect of the whole instrument.


    The last regular Derrington-signed Master Model was a blonde, x-braced Fern V-70781, signed December 23rd, 2004. (A later date can be found on a MM made for an ex-colleague at Gibson, V-70429, signed on Jan. 8th 2005.)

    TX2AK, may I politely ask what is the serial# of your Sam Bush model?

    Greetings,
    Hendrik

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  11. #9

    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Check out this The Mandolin Store video for references.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_txCC3bQGo

    Len B.
    Clearwater, FL

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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Yes, my serial number is 10348017. No V; it’s definitely a lacquer.

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    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Quote Originally Posted by TX2AK View Post
    John Hartford and Norman Blake scraped it off one night before Sam got it from Blake, so he had a luthier (whose name escapes me at the moment) refinish it with a varnish
    The Luthier was Randy Wood; They also performed "Random Hippy Sanding" to the top and made an audio tape of themselves doing it....
    But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
    And London never fails to leave me blue
    And Paris never was my kinda town
    So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues

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  16. #12
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Quote Originally Posted by TX2AK View Post
    Yes, my serial number is 10348017. No V; it’s definitely a lacquer.
    If I'm not mistaken, that serial number would put your F5 into Feb. 3rd 2018.

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    Default Re: Sam Bush Master Model as opposed to F5

    Fretbear, that’s it! And Hendrik, that’s what Gibson said too. Maybe the seller just misremembered or was misinformed.

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