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Thread: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

  1. #1
    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Hello Amazing Mandolin Cafe Peeps,

    I'm putting together an open source / free version of the Bach Cello Suites transposed for mandolin. The final output will be in PDF and MuseScore formats. There will be dots in the beginning of the PDF booklet, followed by tabs. It’s a business up front; party in the back situation. I am looking for some feedback as to how to write and display the notation before I "publish". As an FYI, I am using MuseScore 3 (4 just doesn’t do it for me).

    I personally prefer one movement per page, so that I can display it completely on my iPad and avoid all page turns. After sharing some early versions with people, this is not a universal sentiment. Apparently, a large number of people have a condition affectionately referred to as “old” and would prefer the trade-off of larger notation page for page turns. (My wife recently informed me this affliction is quickly approaching me). So I was thinking of putting together two editions as shown below.

    * Edition 1 - Compact
    * * One page per movement dots
    * * One page per movement tabs

    * Edition 2 - Expanded
    * * 5 measure per line dots
    * * 5 measure per line tabs

    Other fun things part of the Mando/ Cello Suite book include a "guest book" where people can let me know if they are using the project, and I'll include their handle / name in subsequent updates. Could be fun! I'm not thinking of making many HUGE updates over a long period of time unless people are finding errors. Maybe just an update every few years as needed. I'm also thinking of creating some up-front material on famous recordings on mandolin, reference videos on YouTube, and just educational materials about the cello suites.

    Questions:
    1. Does anyone else actually care about the compact version? Or am I just the one crazy person that wants it?
    2. I’m also interested in volunteers to play through the dots and tabs, and just do some quality checks. Anyone interested?
    3. Do folks want the original "slurs" included? To my knowledge, they are less about phrasing, and more about cello bow directions. People tend to interpret them as phrasing marks, and I think that can confuse other mandolinists. So I'm thinking of just deleting them.

    Attached are some PDFs for examples. They aren't final; I'm still working on them!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CelloSuitesForMandolin-No1-BWV-1007-Tabs.pdf   CelloSuitesForMandolin-No1-BWV-1007.pdf  
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  3. #2
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    I appreciate the effort!

    "Questions:
    1. Does anyone else actually care about the compact version? Or am I just the one crazy person that wants it?"

    I would appreciate the option to not have page turns.

    "2. I’m also interested in volunteers to play through the dots and tabs, and just do some quality checks. Anyone interested?"

    Sure!

    "3. Do folks want the original "slurs" included? To my knowledge, they are less about phrasing, and more about cello bow directions. People tend to interpret them as phrasing marks, and I think that can confuse other mandolinists. So I'm thinking of just deleting them."

    I would want any and all original markings from Bach's urtext versions, including ties and slurs, dynamics, etc. on the staff notation. Far from being confusing, it helps to determine the interpretation.

    You can skip markings from later editors, though. Just keep Bach's markings.

    As a matter of preference, I would appreciate the TAB version to be seperate from the notation version so I do not have to skip over the TAB while reading the staff notation. Personally I find it annoying to have TAB under the staff notation as is all too common these days.

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  5. #3
    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    @DavidKOS thank you for being such a badass. You're responses are always helpful.

    It's great to hear others dislike page turns, although other folks please provide your opinions.

    I've got some additional context about the slurs but I'm just not sure if my information is correct or not. I'm an engineer by day, mandolinist by night. Sorry for the ramble. But...I listened to a book on the Bach cello suites, which I highly recommend b/c it's easy listening and is just fun!
    https://www.amazon.com/The-Cello-Sui...blin-audiobook

    This book stated that the versions of the Bach Cello Suites we have nowadays were not physically written by Bach. I'm able to corroborate that with other sources as well. Essentially, they aren't originals. We have 4 versions of the Cello Suites copied by 4 different "authors" (engravists?) sometime in the 18th century. The different versions all have different slurs in various places, although obviously there are similarities. And these slurs pertain to bow direction, not phrasing. I dabble in fiddle and I don't always think of bow direction as a 1:1 relationship with phasing, although they are highly related. I play French horn and trumpet as well, and slurs mean something completely different. Slurs are a funky, instrument-specific thing.

    Going further, I was recently chatting with a mandolist just getting into classical mandolin and they were looking at the slurs as indicating phrases sent from on high from Bach and they were making interpretation decisions based off of the slur markings that weren't even meant for their instrument. And to further complicate matters, many of these slur markings were probably written for Viola de Gamba, not Violincello, where the strings are reversed from high-to-low.

    It's all very confusing and complicated and this specific question has prevented me from moving forward on this project since I put it in my goals in January haha If anyone has thoughts or ideas or perspectives or can tell me I'm wrong... .please do! Until then, I was thinking ... why not delete them? They cause more confusion than they are worth.

    /rant
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  7. #4
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Deep Cuts View Post
    @DavidKOS thank you for being such a badass. You're responses are always helpful.

    This book stated that the versions of the Bach Cello Suites we have nowadays were not physically written by Bach. ..... Essentially, they aren't originals. We have 4 versions of the Cello Suites copied by 4 different "authors" (engravists?
    Ah, the search for "urtext" version!

    https://imslp.org/wiki/6_Cello_Suite...ann_Sebastian)

    I see what you mean about different copyists and the widely varying articulations, slurs and bowings..

    I would probably use the version by his second wife and frequent copyist, Anna Magdalena; she copied many of the Bach pieces and was very close to Johann and the rest of the musical family. I recently read a book on the subject, and she was so close to her husband that her manuscript writing often was difficult to distinguish from her husband's.

    Her copy has a limited use of slurs, and differs greatly, for example, from the Bach Gesellschaft edition, and is drastically different from the Peters edition or the Dotzauer and most of the other engraved editions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandolin Deep Cuts View Post
    Going further, I was recently chatting with a mandolist just getting into classical mandolin and they were looking at the slurs as indicating phrases sent from on high from Bach and they were making interpretation decisions based off of the slur markings that weren't even meant for their instrument. And to further complicate matters, many of these slur markings were probably written for Viola de Gamba, not Violoncello, where the strings are reversed from high-to-low.
    Just a quick point, the strings are not reversed on Gamba and Cello, but they are in quite different tunings. The strings are still "normal" in that the low strings are closest to the player, the high pitches are on the outside.

    https://www.vdgsa.org/about-the-viol-sizes-and-tunings

    http://ftp.baroqueflute.com/musicwor...ificant%20ways.

    Gambas were tuned much like the lute family, in 4ths with a 3rd in the middle, unlike the Cello which is tuned in fifths.

    While I'm on the subject, there is some evidence that the some if not all of Cello Suites were written for a 5 string instrument tuned in 5ths called "Viola Pomposa":

    https://badiarovviolins.com/PDF/GSJ6...5_Badiarov.pdf

    https://oslmusic.org/bach_posts/the-...viola-pomposa/

    "Many now think that the 6th cello suite was also written for this instrument – if not all of the cello suites."

    http://blog.feinviolins.com/2015/11/...something.html

    "As many cellists will attest, there is a disconnect in the level of difficulty between the first four suites and the fifth and sixth suites. This may be due to the fact that they written for a five stringed instrument (tuned from high to low E,A,D,G,C or a different scordatura tuning) known as the violoncello piccolo or it's nickname 'viola pomposa' or just a somewhat smaller bodied (about the size of a modern 7/8 cello) five string cello."

    " The Anna Magdalena Bach (Bach's second and surviving wife) manuscript suggests otherwise. In her manuscript she indicates the tuning of the strings of the instrument for the Sixth Suite which is (from low to high) C-G-D-A-E. This confirms that this particular suite was probably composed not for a four string cello, but a five stringed instrument."

    https://www.thestrad.com/for-subscri.../15031.article

    First, as to which manuscript to use as urtext:

    "Anna Magdalena Bach’s manuscript had been copied from her husband’s lost fair copy, " so that's as close as we will get to J. S. Bach's version.

    "The Sixth Suite was written for the viola pomposa, a now obsolete, five-string, horizontally played instrument invented by Bach, and the scordatura tuning of Bach’s Fifth Suite – the A string being lowered to G – imitated the tuning of its earlier original version for the lute.

    In truth, none of these ‘facts’ can be proved, and at most, only a couple of them are likely to be correct."

    It seems as though the jury is still out on this one!

    Back to the question of markings.

    Just use the simple ones from the Anna Magdalena manuscript for the reason given above.

    Best of luck, I appreciate your efforts here.

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  9. #5
    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Well David, I learned a LOT from your post and related citations. Thank you!! If you have a copy of that Strad article handy I'd love to take a gander.

    After a little searching, I believe the "OpenScore" copy of the cello suites I'm using are not leveraging Anna M's slurs. Dang. In fact, I would say Anna M's versions are MARKEDLY different. Take a look at the attached PDF. It compares all 4 18th century manuscripts and is just kinda cool. Take a look at that first measure; 3 of the versions are up strokes whereas Anna M's just slurs the B and A. Fascinating. But your logic of Anna doing a lot of the writing for Bach is quite convincing. It's a well known fact and I can't believe I didn't take that into consideration.

    I'll wait to decide to see if there's any more input before I decide on a path forward. I really don't want to spend so much time dropping in slurs, but maybe that's just the name of the game, right? Give the people what they want! haha
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    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    The compact version, with one movement per page, might prove difficult. The edition I have of the six suites (transcribed for viola by Watson Forbes) has the preludes for Suites 1-4 across two pages. The Suite 5 prelude stretches across four pages, and Suite 6's prelude is on three tightly spaced pages. The prelude to Suite 3, for example, would be awfully tight on one page. The allemandes and courantes are all on one page each, except for Suite 6 where they occupy two pages. The sarabandes and gavottes/menuets are shorter, usually three movements across two pages. The gigues are variable in length; some require a half page, some stretch out into two.

    Whether or not you decide to include the slurs, the ties are important—a quarter note tied to the following sixteenth for example.

    I agree with David about having the tab version separate from the dots. Particularly if you want to eliminate page turns, that would make everything very crowded.

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    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    I'm not a great reader of the dots but I also get annoyed by notation and tab on the same page.
    Mainly because it means twice as many page turns.
    Bren

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    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    @Louise You’re definitely correct, the font gets small. But it’s doable! Take a look at the example I posted at the very beginning. The first movement of suite 1 is a good example of how compact it will get. I’ll post an example of Suite 3 later today. (I already have it made, I am just watching my toddler at the moment.) I think there are 2 movements that must be multi-page. In the grand scheme of things, I call that a win!

    I hereby solemnly swear not to remove ties. Madness lies in that direction.

    @Bren I agree that dots up top and tabs down below on the same page is ugly and an inefficient use of space. It’s my one big gripe with all my favorite Mel bay books. Do you like the tab example I posted at the top of this thread?

    Thanks everyone for the input!
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    So this is a general question, and shows a bit of naiveté on my part. I have thought that the dots are the dots, but the tab is someone's decision as to how the dots should be fingered. It can be based on instructions from the composer, notes from great interpreters and teachers, tradition, or some knowledgeable student who sorted out his or her way of playing it and tabbed it out. Indeed I just realized, it could be mandolin deep cuts himself making the choices! Which is a noble enterprise for sure.

    So while the notes are the notes, for the most part, the tab could have a number of sources. No? In which case whose tab is it? Who made what choices in fingering, where there is a choice to be made.

    I have a classical music coach (really an instructor but my ego prefers the term "coach"), who helps me with actual fingering. My approach would be to use the dots exclusively and have my "coach" help me with how to best approach the fingering.

    In my experience, just working on a Bach cello suite, chasing that beauty, is a very fulfilling experience. At what ever level I am able to do it.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    I’m a fan of the tab example above, and I appreciate your efforts! I’ve found that succumbing to the “olds” and begrudgingly moving to progressive lenses makes life much easier, lol…
    Chuck

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    So this is a general question, and shows a bit of naiveté on my part. I have thought that the dots are the dots, but the tab is someone's decision as to how the dots should be fingered. It can be based on instructions from the composer, notes from great interpreters and teachers, tradition, or some knowledgeable student who sorted out his or her way of playing it and tabbed it out. Indeed I just realized, it could be mandolin deep cuts himself making the choices! Which is a noble enterprise for sure.

    So while the notes are the notes, for the most part, the tab could have a number of sources. No? In which case whose tab is it? Who made what choices in fingering, where there is a choice to be made.

    I have a classical music coach (really an instructor but my ego prefers the term "coach"), who helps me with actual fingering. My approach would be to use the dots exclusively and have my "coach" help me with how to best approach the fingering.

    In my experience, just working on a Bach cello suite, chasing that beauty, is a very fulfilling experience. At what ever level I am able to do it.
    This is a great point.

    Even if it's fingering marks on the staff notation, the editor of the piece of music will choose which of any number of possible fingerings will be the ones they will publish.

    I have many classical guitar pieces that are fingered quite differently depending on the person making those choices.

    In older mandolin music, I often see indications as to whether certain notes should be played on the open string or as a closed fingering.

    With TAB, the fingering IS the "music".

    It's worth thinking about.

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  22. #12
    Registered User Louise NM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Mandolin Deep Cuts, the examples you have furnished are tab. Once you get to the notes, ledger lines will force the staves further apart.

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    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    Great project. And I commend you for sending out this query to see how folks would like to approach this music.

    1. I agree that standard notation and tab on the same page is a built in annoyance.
    2. Downsizing readable font for the sake of fitting all of something on a page reminds me of the now dated "reader's" editions of classical music scores: these miniature scores were good for reading along with a performance (by someone else!) ... and perhaps they may have been good enough if one's objective was outright memorization, but for reading and playing simultaneously ... well, for Bach you need to think about the average age of CMSA membership.
    3. Jeff D and DavidKOS are on the mark regarding tab for Bach; I have found it interesting and sometimes useful, but in general not always on the mark for how I think (and my hands feel) something should be fingered. An odd notion, perhaps, but if you could find a way of including alternative fingerings (use colors?) on the same tab notation, that might be kind of unique and aid the performer in thinking clearly about what he prefers in certain instances.

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  26. #14
    Registered User Mandolin Deep Cuts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making an Open Source / Free Cello Suite for Mandolin Book

    @JeffD you're absolutely right that tabs are a little more granular than dots. Even then, if the tab says to play the 5th fret on the D string, the player has to make a choice as to which finger to use unless there's even more specificity. Because tabs can be a fickle thing, I am looking for folks to double check the tabs.

    @CES I'll be there soon

    @Louise My second example in the original post looks like dots to me, perhaps this link will work? Sorry for any confusion.
    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/a...9&d=1683644394

    @JoeBartl Thanks for the kind words!

    1. I promise I won't do it!
    2. LOL that's a fair point. I'm hoping that by slowly building a body of free and accessible classical mandolin music, we can reduce that age but at least 5 years haha
    3. Whoa I had not considered that at all! I'll do some research. Someone else must have done this before?
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