Ability to Jam

[bmfsfan615]

Hello All,

Coming off one of those defeated days of practice (where I feel that my progression has been slow / that I’m not improving), I wanted to ask those out there - how long did it take for you to develop the ability to jam with others competently? What were your practice regimens like in order to reach that milestone? Not attempting to rush the process, just curious if my development is normal or I should switch things up.

I realize everyone develops at different speeds and all situations are different, but reached a point of frustration where I feel like I have a solid grip on the basics (ie scales, how to chop, familiarity with common bluegrass jam songs) but I can’t seem to put it all together (ie chops, creative breaks, rhythm, etc). I practice scales and fiddle tunes but can’t really come up with my own creative breaks. I can chop in isolation and slower speeds but when I attempt to speed up I have stray open strings ring out (either a rhythm or muting issue)

Thanks all in advance for your helpful input as always!

[Kevin Winn]

Define "competently......"

Seriously, if you feel you have a good grasp of those basics, the best thing you can do is get to playing with others. Maybe look for a slow jam, if that makes you feel a little more comfortable, but nothing will help you move forward more than playing with others. Yes, you'll make mistakes and have the occasional train wreck break, but you'll also learn more in one jam session than you will in a dozen solo scale exercises.

[Mandobart]

Jamming with others doesn't have to include improv. If you know a few basic chords in A,C, D and G (hint - there is a LOT of overlap) you're ready to jam.

I tell EVERYONE if you wait until you think you're ready - you'll never go to a jam.

IMO improvisation is not a skill learned best in isolation. Go to a jam. Contribute, watch, LISTEN, and learn. There is nothing wrong with simply playing the melody as a break.

[mandocello8]

... ability to jam with others ...

from your words, sounds like you have everything you need. "go forth and jam, young man!" as they used to say.

if you are coming to our local jam at the ANZA club, I think you will do okey, you know basic chords, basic strumming, a few fiddle tunes. stay on the perimeter of the jam in the main room, or move closer to the action, or try the hard core jam in the bar. find your own level yourself.

you mention only one specific problem when trying to jam, inability to come up with cool improvisations on the spot. do not worry about it, your are not Bach, not even Paganini. the lead goes around in a circle. it's only 10 seconds of "play anything!", then it's the next person's problem.

no ideas for "play anything!"? try (a) play the chords extra loud, (b) play the scales (in the right key, in the wrong key, back to the right key), (c) play pre-prepared the boogie-woogie or blues patterns, (d) record the jam, transcribe, learn and memorize what somebody else played, (e) go to all gypsy-jazz improvisation workshops, you will be surprised to learn the secrets of their "improvisations".

[CarlM]

Here is another option to practice bluegrass jamming without putting yourself totally on the spot.

Tyler Grant the flatpicking guitarist, hosts a livestream jam most Monday nights. It is not like a Zoom session where you can be heard. He plays through a number of songs, starting off fairly easy and progressing in difficulty. He will start around 6:30 Central Time usually with a slow jam, go for an hour or so, take a short break and come back with a mid tempo jam then finishes with a fast jam. He presents each song, goes through the chord changes, demonstrates how he would do an intro then starts off letting the listeners play the intro and trading breaks as he sings the songs. The slow jam starts at a nice beginner pace and he gradually increases speed till the end of the fast jam where it is a case of make sure your fingers are attached tightly so they do not fly off. It usually ends around 9:30 or 10 Central time.

He broadcasts simultaneously on Facebook live if you prefer that though the Facebook feed seems to have more glitches. He does not charge though he accepts donations. He puts it up on his website and Facebook the weeks he does it. It depends on his travel and performing schedule whether it happens. There are also several years of past sessions on his You Tube channel you can access anytime. I have put a link below to his You Tube live streams and schedule. You have to check that day or a few days before to see if he is going to have it because sometimes he is on the road and finds a place to host at the last minute.

https://www.youtube.com/@TylerGrant/streams

https://www.tylergrant.com/live

[gfury]

We all have good days and bad days.

For coming up with a break on the fly, the pentatonic scale is your friend. Learn it in a closed position, and in open positions for for the keys you encounter most.

Learn some double-stops and play them in parallel to the chord progression.

I practice scales and arpeggios. For improvising a break, I think I get more out of the arpeggios (my breaks are pretty simple).

[jaycat]

When practicing those fiddle tunes, try changing a few notes here and there. Voila, you're improvising!

[grassrootphilosopher]

To understand, how to put it all together, I would advise the following.

Find your favorite records or what have you. Turn them on and play along. I am speaking out of a bluegrass perspective but the same aplies in all other genres.

If you play along with a record, you have a competent band to back you up. If you play crappy the sound will bite you in your behind. If you then suffer you will hopefully work on playing better.

You can then play along with bands that do not incorporate the instrument of your choice thus making you fill "the void" (or rather add a little extra to the mix).

Depending on your proficiency you can also play along with your favorite player that plays the instrument you want to get really good at.

For example: The CD "Not For Kids Only" is by Jerry Garcia and David Grisman. The songs are fairly slow. The mandolin playing of David Grisman is not (too) complicated or fast. You could (if you closely listen and experiment) find out the notes that he plays. Then you can try to play as he does. If you come close: Congrats. The music is fabulous. And so you have become a good player that is fit to play with anyone and jam with anyone.

[addamr]

A lot of great advise so far. I will add that in most lager bluegrass jams you are not required to take a break on every song. You can pass until you feel comfortable enough to take a break. Just work on your basics, rhythm, fills and such. Just try to get used to fitting in with the flow of the jam. Practice listening and fitting in. As you become more comfortable and proficient you will find areas where you can add to the jam.
There is no comparison between what you hear and feel playing in a live situation verses playing along with recordings and backing tracks. Playing live with others you begin to develop an ear for what fits and what doesn't a lot quicker than just playing and practicing alone.
There are different kinds of jams. Find you one that is not to rigid and get in there and have a good time. That's why we play music.

Adam

[Mark Gunter]

Bmfsfan, it seems obvious that you’re asking specifically about bluegrass jams, since you mention “chopping” and fiddle tunes. Not all bluegrass jams are created equal, so it’s difficult to answer your questions - and the answer wouldn’t be the same for everyone anyway, in terms of “how long does it take to play competently?”

But I believe this much is true: The only way to become competent at something is to practice it and gain experience at it. So the important thing about the jamming experience is to get out and do it. Do the best you can, try to enjoy the experience, and don’t fret too much about sometimes sucking at it or embarrassing yourself. The more you do it, the more competent you will become. The more often you do it the more quickly you may become competent at it, and the less you do it the longer it will take.

[bmfsfan615]

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for all the wonderful suggestions. Really helpful advice for a rookie such as myself - looks like I got some practicing/work to do!

[Markus]

I practice scales and fiddle tunes but can’t really come up with my own creative breaks. I can chop in isolation and slower speeds but when I attempt to speed up I have stray open strings ring out (either a rhythm or muting issue)

When playing breaks, esp for sung songs, just try to play the sung melody. Ornamentation can be added later, but a simple solo that sticks the melody beats one with a lot of flash that sounds like they're playing a whole different song. Once you have the melody, then you can think about leaving the melody for a phrase or adding ornament.

As for backup - it takes practice to do cleanly at speed. Spend time every warmup and practice section to work on it. Play along with slower recordings, make sure to work through all common chord progressions/keys, it's ok if it takes time as it only seems easy. Consider spending a little time every practice with a metronome, getting your rhythm rock-solid. My biggest `secret' to rhythm was realizing that the right hand keeping time is the only important part .... if I just mute the strings with the left hand and keep my right hand in PERFECT rhythm it will sound quite good still .... and no matter how perfectly I chop a chord if the right hand is off everyone can hear that my rhythm missed.

I have found using an app like Strum Machine or using YouTube playlists of backing tracks to play with was really helpful as like with jamming it forces you to catch up when you miss something ... when playing in isolation it's all to easy to `go back to where you missed'. Learning to hit the next downbeat and start running + put whatever mistake happened immediately out of your mind is essential for successful jamming and can't really be learned without such a tool [or other humans].


I know it seems like a small thing, but if at the jam everyone stands and you normally play sitting at home - practice now and then standing or how you'd play at the jam. When I started performing, it was something I had to include in my practice after I realized I wasn't able to tap my toe/etc as usual.

It took us all a while to `get there'. Give yourself grace and patience, you'll get there too.

[Josh Levine]

The Tyler Grant suggestion is great. That’s a great opportunity to practice playing along with someone without the pressure of a jam setting. Early on I left many a jam session with my tail between my legs and sometimes it would take me a few months or weeks before I was ready to get back on the horse and ride again. Than it started to click and I just went and played whenever and with whoever I could. It’s ok to be the worst one at the jam as long as you listen and pay attention, try to add and not subtract and know when to sit back and listen instead of trying to hang above your pay grade.

[JeffD]

Hello All,

Coming off one of those defeated days of practice (where I feel that my progression has been slow / that I’m not improving),

My experience has been that when progress has stopped for me, there is some basic technique thing that needs improvement. It has happened so many times it is my goto solution. I very deliberately go back to basics, very basics, hold the mandolin correctly, hold the neck correctly, keep my fingers down, pick grip, planting, picking pattern, pick angle, etc. etc. All the things, Most often I find some little thing that I either neglected or that I got sloppy with over time. Once I fix it progress starts up. Just about every time. My theory is that this one thing was not an issue when I had more egregious things to sort out.

I wanted to ask those out there - how long did it take for you to develop the ability to jam with others competently? What were your practice regimens like in order to reach that milestone? Not attempting to rush the process, just curious if my development is normal or I should switch things up.

Well it takes about a decade to play like you been at it for ten years.

... but when I attempt to speed up I have stray open strings ring out (either a rhythm or muting issue)

Or the prejudice that you are responsible for every darn note in the chord you are chopping. I cheat. A lot. I play 3 out of 4 notes of the chord, (and sometimes only two), figuring the guitar is gonna have all those notes anyway. Nobody has ever ever come up to me and said that I missed a note in that F#m chop chord.

And regarding the breaks, well my opinion doesn't match everyone - but I like breaks that are strongly related to the melody. So I start with the melody and do tasteful digressions. If I am feeling brave and strong I will depart from the melody a bit more. I am not a fan of generic breaks - working out something in G that will fit in every tune and can be pulled out when needed. But it is a technique some recommend. Others feel one can benefit from learning note for note the breaks of great players. As a learning tool I don't object, but as a playing technique I am not a fan.

Note not every kind of music at a jam requires an improvisational break. In lots of music we just play the melody beautifully.

Here is a gigantic piece of advice. End every practice session with some fun noodling on things you already do well. Just tear up the pea patch with already acquired competence. Leave practice on a high note.

[Simon DS]

Yes, back to basics is a great way to consolidate your learning, and make you an all-round player. I guess this gives you more confidence to play with others in a different environment.

Here’s an example of basics. Just been learning vibrato on the fiddle. One exercise (that I invented myself, thank very much) is to slide the whole hand with all four fingers (very fiddle-style) on one string on the fingerboard all the way up the (little) neck, but use only elbow movement.
Now because the fiddle is at about 45 degrees to the shoulders, there are two main muscles in the arm that have to operate in an extremely coordinated fashion. This allows the fret hand to slide smoothly up without bumping from side to side up the neck, and without bumping at each end. It’s a set distance each time.
Ok. Now you do the same exercise for an hour faster, and faster.

Why am I saying all this about very uninteresting fiddle playing?
Because back on my octave the feeling of agility and relaxed control is UNBELIEVABLE!
I hadn’t realised how much my whole arm was involved -and limiting my playing. One finger scales up a single string are now actually fun!

There’s another exercise a bit like this for the picking arm…
And there is a huge stockpile of simple to understand but quite technical vids on style, ergonomics etc. on YouTube.

[mbruno]

Hello All,

Coming off one of those defeated days of practice (where I feel that my progression has been slow / that I’m not improving), I wanted to ask those out there - how long did it take for you to develop the ability to jam with others competently? What were your practice regimens like in order to reach that milestone? Not attempting to rush the process, just curious if my development is normal or I should switch things up.

I realize everyone develops at different speeds and all situations are different, but reached a point of frustration where I feel like I have a solid grip on the basics (ie scales, how to chop, familiarity with common bluegrass jam songs) but I can’t seem to put it all together (ie chops, creative breaks, rhythm, etc). I practice scales and fiddle tunes but can’t really come up with my own creative breaks. I can chop in isolation and slower speeds but when I attempt to speed up I have stray open strings ring out (either a rhythm or muting issue)

Thanks all in advance for your helpful input as always!

I've been playing mandolin for maybe 20 years now (G sus that's a long time) - but I just started playing resonator / dobro (just saying dobro going forward) due to some left hand issues (thankfully that's getting better!). I borrowed a dobro from a friend, bought some picks and a capo, and started playing about 3 weeks ago (Talk about going back to basics!!).

I went to my first jam last week and played dobro (so only 2 weeks in at that point). What I've found in becoming a beginner again:


1. People at jams are generally nice and want to play with others. Be nice to everyone and generally they'll be nice back. In the rare case there's a jerk in the crowd, it's been my experience they are usually a "problem" jammer anyway.
2. Be honest about your abilities. Don't try to play like a pro, you're not - you're a student. Learn a few popular jam songs and be able to play those to a backing track at home. Play those tunes the same as you played it at home to start - same notes, same tempo etc. Don't try to improv or add the fancy stuff immediately.
3. You're going to mess up, and that's fine. Even if you get it 100% of the time at home at double the speed - once you're at a jam with people, suddenly that can go out the window. When you mess up, try to pick it back up when you can.
4. You don't need to take a break on every song, but you do need to make your intentions known. If you're not going to take a break, tell the person next to you ASAP - don't wait until it's your turn to skip.
5. Find someone playing better than you and watch / listen to them closely. I always try to mimic the better players - on dobro, I fail most often - but sometimes I can get it! Ask better players questions during breaks too.
6. Don't get drunk. Might not be a problem for you - but worth noting. I can play a decent mandolin in a pretty blacked out state (friends of mine have recordings haha) but if I have 1 beer, my dobro skills start getting questionable.
7. Write down songs that you like and rate how you felt playing it. Learn the one's you thought were easy ASAP, then focus on the harder ones. Likely those songs will get called at the next jam - so practicing them will be a big help.
8. Don't put yourself down and have fun. Just going to your first jam to participate is a huge step that many don't take. Feel good about going. Feel humbled by better players. Feel like you need to practice (I also do after a good jam). But never feel bad about how you played at a jam. Sounds dumb maybe, but attitude is a big part of playing. If you feel like you suck or you don't belong - likely you'll play like that too.

Go forth. Jam. Make friends. Screw up. Enjoy life.

[pops1]

When you get scales down that is a good start, but knowing where to be in the scale for the different chords of the song is something you will need to know. The 1 is different than the 4 and both are different from the 5 chord. It's quite simple when you see it in a closed scale pattern, harder to tell by typing here, at least for me. Then you can watch the guitar player's chords and play in that part of the scale where you need to be.

[Simon DS]

Another thing - though it’s been said before, and there are long threads on it.
‘Jam’ can have many different meanings.
The two main ones are: to play music with other people, and the second is to play improvised music together. But there are many, many others with different styles and genres of music coming from many different cultures.

Mostly, as a newcomer your role within the group will be ‘newcomer who’s there to be nice, listen, learn and have fun’.