Bluegrass Jam…just kidding.

[Mandobart]

I'm just lucky. I have a mostly bluegrass jam every Monday night. Been playing together now for over 15 years. I have another wider-genre acoustic jam every Wednesday night. Every Friday we have a strictly old time jam. One Thursday a month we have an "old time fiddlers" jam that is actually bluegrass, classic country and swing jam.

I don't get my undies wadded up one way or the other. I enjoy gathering to play acoustic music with friends.

At the many great festivals here in the PNW there's something for everyone.

[Ranald]

This issue goes beyond music. Every time, I put on my hockey gear and head over to the baseball diamond, in no time, the baseball police are onto me, telling me that I can't play with them. Well, baseball won't survive unless it changes, so people who want to play baseball in the old way, that Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, and Hank Aaron did, seem to me like a bunch of uptight jerks who don't like fun. A few slap shots and a bench-clearing brawl liven up any neighbourhood baseball game. The basketball crowd is as elitist by the way. But me, I just like getting together, playing sports, and having a good time, while caring nothing about what the organizers of and other participants in the event prefer. In fact, I get childlike pleasure at sabotaging the event to fit my preferences.

[TX2AK]

Point somewhat taken, but the difference in your metaphor is that games have very specific and definitive rules; music is quite the opposite and ever evolving. Nothing wrong with being a purist and having a group of devoted purists to a particular artist or few artists body of work who get together to play that body, but anything open to the public and involving a less structured and inviting atmosphere is going to have changing and evolving styles. When my 12 year old called “Wagon Wheel” when asked in his first jam at a bluegrass festival (actual bluegrass artists, not jamgrass or festigrass or whatever you call it), I was proud that he had the courage to call a tune and lead it when invited to do so, rather than be embarrassed at his selection. Had his selection been met with scorn, it would have deterred him from the scene, rather than encourage him to double his practice time and be excited for his next opportunity. We had walked around without instruments first and found the circles that were more closed and playing good quality, real bluegrass; and obviously chose a different scene. If you organize your own group or event, make it what you want it to be. If you go to someone else’s, I get having a little frustration with “false advertising”; but i feel like you have to expect it to be what it’s organizers and participants want; and thank goodness plenty of them are more fluid and open, as the OP’s own summer event apparently is.

[swampy]

So having said my piece, I feel buoyed by those that agree and encouraged to take what I can get with grace by those with an open mind, but TX2AK got one thing wrong…my annual jam and cookout is not a summer event, but rather a fall pig roast. So if any of you fine folks are around the Lakes Region of New Hampshire (closer to the Maine side to be more specific) this Oct 7 send me a message and I will give you the details. It’s a family friendly event starting around 4 o’clock. It’s an eclectic group of musicians and we usually play outside by the campfire weather permitting. All genres are represented, with the only rule being Acoustic only. There’s an upright bass available and even a somewhat-in-tune piano out by the campfire. We will be serving up a whole hog cooked in the Carolina Style (my original homeland) so if you’re game c’mon.

[CarlM]

We will be serving up a whole hog cooked in the Carolina Style (my original homeland) so if you’re game c’mon.

If you want to see some really fierce arguments start riling up the barbecue police On the old Flatpick-L list there were some serious arguments about barbecue that involved bitter personal attacks. I was amazed.

Seriously it sounds like great fun and I wish I lived closer.

[TX2AK]

I wish I was in your area too. For the record, I realize that I got several points of punctuation, capitalization and grammar wrong too, which annoys me - I did misremember your post about your event, which sounds awesome! I’m sure I am overly sensitive on the topic, because I have two young learners who consider Trampled by Turtles, Yonder Mountain String Band, Newgrass Revival, and Bluegrass Album Band, all to be “bluegrass,” and I don’t know exactly how to correct them. Mind you, their other favorite genre is “classic rock,” which is Pearl Jam (Eddie Vedder’s acoustic stuff helped that transition), Weezer, Sound Garden and Green Day - which were my middle and high school jams; so not what I think of as “classic rock.” My “classic rock,” is their “oldies.” The older (12) played in and was majorly buoyed by his first jam at SnowyGrass this summer, described above. We hit Trampled by Turtles at Red Rocks the Thursday before (which was transcendental for a number of reasons not germane to the current topic), and then went to SnowyGrass, so I know we added to the confusion. I know that The Bluegrass Album Band, Earl, Bill, Stanleys, etc. are bluegrass. At SnowyGrass, we saw Frank Sullivan and Dirty Kitchen jam the heck out of a number of tunes, some theirs, some very traditional - “Squirrel Hunters” comes to mind; and saw a lot of other great true bluegrass acts. Are FS and DK “Bluegrass?” The stuff my undergrad roommate referred to as “turkey lurkey bullsh**t” is definitely bluegrass (that’s the traditional stuff you know for sure). From there forward, where is the line? I’m sincerely asking. I have asked forums, like BHO, and gotten goofy answers from people living in cities about “cow manure between the toes …” (literally after I came in from feeding cows, pigs, and chickens); and even great bluegrass musicians, including Kristen Scott Benson - IBMA Banjo Player of the Year a zillion times and fabulous human being, and she considers the Newgrass guys in the fold, because they were steeped in BG roots (Bill Monroe certainly disagreed, according to the Sam Bush documentary - was kind to Sam during his cancer, but completely snubbed him as a player). According to an interview with Erik Berry, Trampled by Turtles mandolin player, they got together because they were rock musicians who had all gotten into bluegrass and wanted to play that direction (their beef was with being characterized as a “jam band,” like Yonder, and they decidedly aren’t); while Yonder Mountain String Band clearly has serious bluegrass chops, but is equally adept at an old time fiddle tune or Grateful Dead song. As a purveyor of a lot of music from a lot of styles, as are many people here, if there is a definitive definition for “bluegrass,” that would be extremely helpful. I don’t know how to define it for myself, which doesn’t really bother me, but if it’s important, I’d like to be able to define it to the boys. Surely, it’s not some useless definition like Justice Stewart’s definition of pornography, “I now it when I see it,” which are pretty well the best I’ve seen to date. If that is where we are, we should probably be exceedingly generous with “non-bluegrass” at an open jam. If anyone knows a good definition, I’d love to hear it; sincerely.

[TX2AK]

Even if we can’t agree on labels, can we all agree that I’m better off than many with my boys’ musical preference over their friends’ Taylor Swift and Beyoncé - praise Goodness that I’m not dealing with that as a competitor!

[swampy]

Even if we can’t agree on labels, can we all agree that I’m better off than many with my boys’ musical preference over their friends’ Taylor Swift and Beyoncé - praise Goodness that I’m not dealing with that as a competitor!

Amen! To that. My son, who rejected the genre as a youngster, now pulls into the driveway blasting Bluegrass Album Band and Tony Rice. I can’t give you a definitive definition, but these days I’m happy to play/hear anything close to it. I welcome Yonder and TBT, Newgrass. Pretty much anything with a chop, a roll, a thump and a boom-chuck will get me excited. It’s funny, at times, I forget how niche it really is. I think of my Bluegrass Heroes as “rock stars” I just naturally assume they’re all rolling in the millions covered in bling and sipping champagne. I mean c’mon how else did Tony Rice afford all those amazing shirts! The fact that most of my friends and colleagues have never heard any of my favorite albums blows my mind.

Oh yeah, the thought of Pearl Jam and Green Day being classic rock just made me want to dye my beard. Hard to believe high-school is almost 30 yrs in the past.

[TX2AK]

Hahaha! We took the boys to a Weezer show a couple of years ago (pandemic era) at an amphitheater in Phoenix, and visited some friends at the same time. It was amazing to me that they were as or more excited than we were. I was 14 when the Blue Album was released. Then I remembered my parents taking me to see the Steve Miller Band for my 13th birthday (‘93) - his Greatest Hits ‘74-78 - I would have been younger when I saw them as “classic rock” than Weezer’s Blue Album. I sure don’t feel as old as I thought my dad was then, but I’m a good bit older. My dad and I are still very close - time and aging are crazy.

But really, if anyone can define bluegrass, I’m still in search for a definition. Of course, “The less I seek my source for some definitive, the closer I am to fine!”

[grassrootphilosopher]

This jam session thread has morped into a several topic thread.

I would like to adress several points that came up.

Yes, there are jam sessions that are not bluegrass. They are more in numbers than bluegrass jam sessions. Am I against them. Absolutely not. I applaud the effort to play music live. In my parts some of them are called "Hogascht". I participated in one of them. Afterwards they asked me if I had a uniform (typical bavarian traditional costume) to play elswhere (in public).

Yes there are more mediocre players than high roller super professionals that participate in a jam session. I don´t think that that is a problem. In bluegrass jam sessions I have allways encountered an inclusiveness of the less proficient player. Even the best players give room to the lesser player in a bluegrass jam session.

A jam session that is dominated by rythmically unstable musicians is likely to fall apart or at least not produce very listenable results. I am okay playing in these jam sessions for the ulterior motive to help others to become a better player. Otherwise I try to avoid these jam sessions.

A jamsession with many instruments (of the same kind, like 5 banjos, 3 mandolins, 9 guitars, 4 bass fiddles etc.) will most allways produce a cacophony. This is because everybody wants to play at once. No one has the discipline to let others play for a song and just sit one out and listen. I try to avoid these.

If a responsible and knowledgable person takes charge of a jam session he will a) work to avoid jam session buster songs (f.ex. "Gentle On My Mind", "Little Rock Getaway"...), b) keep be inclusive (let everyone contribute songs/solos), c) take care that a certain level of musicianship is retained (steady timing, no faltering tempo) and d) make everybody feel relaxed while playing.

I find that a good musician can elevate the level of the jam session if the aforesaid is taken care of.

Other than that, there´s nothing wrong with joining a little fun without trying to play your level best (if you are so inclined).

A closed jam session where a small amount of musicians meet to play is not what this thread was about. So I will not go into this topic.

[Bren]

There is something of the same dilemma with Scottish and Irish sessions in UK & Ireland and elsewhere (not to mention English, Welsh, Scandi etc).
You don't always know what you're in for when first venturing to a strange session, so the ratio of risk increases the further (in time or distance but time is the most critical) you have to travel. If it's just round the corner, why not have a look? Nothing much to lose by doing so. If it's 40 minutes, 90 minutes etc, then you're going to want to know more before you leave home.

In the case of pub sessions you can often find video or at least photos online, on their Facebook page usually, or even YouTube (other platforms are available) so you can see what it's like, if anyone you know has been there etc.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well, any time I go to a jam I know it's going to be a hit or miss proposition. Even jams that were cool and 'grassy last time I went can become a complete bust with a different crew. Skill levels can make or break any jam. If there are people that can't keep time, can't tune their instrument or can't remember the lyrics to a song they kick off well, those can kill a good time. Yes, we all had to learn to play, and to learn to play with others. Newbies get a pass. Especially if they are polite and quiet..... that's respect for the music and the players. And in the final analysis if I am not having fun, I can kit up my instruments and go home. With hopes that the next jam I go to is a 'grassy one. Which is funny because I live in Kentucky. Go figure. R/

[ralph johansson]

Guess the word "bluegrass" is going the way of just about every other musical term. It's the same with Celtic, folk, traditional, roots, and blues jams. it's a crap shoot whether they'll have anything to do with the form of music they advertise. And don't even get me onto festivals -- even our Chamber Music Festival has pop and jazz performers. One of these days, I'm expecting to see Beebs performing there. Still, I think bluegrass has held on much longer than many terms. Good luck on finding a real bluegrass jam.

p.s., Are you implying that "Wagon Wheel" is not bluegrass? I've often heard it at Celtic sessions.

No tune or song is or isn't Bluegrass -- Bluegrass is what you do with it.

[newton]

one the greatest musicians I know said, “I would never go to one of those bluegrass jams, because I don’t play how they want me to play,”

I know lots of musicians, primarily guitarists, that are more technically skilled than the local bluegrassers, but they don't know (and haven't made any effort to learn) the most basic bluegrass/old-time country repertoire, and can't play rhythm in that style at all.

I think it's exceedingly rare that the bluegrass jam wants someone to play exactly like Bill/Earl/Bluegrass Album Band. Usually, they would be happy if people wanted to learn about bluegrass and attempt to play in a somewhat stylistically/rhythmically appropriate manner, but a lot of people who can "already play well" aren't interested in doing so, and that's where the friction comes in.

[Ranald]

No tune or song is or isn't Bluegrass -- Bluegrass is what you do with it.

I understand that. I'm not a bluegrass player, but I've heard bluegrass takes on many popular songs from other genres. Still, if you haven't learned and aren't trying to learn the genre being played, bluegrass, Celtic, blues, or whatever, why would you play a popular song in a mainstream style at the session. I've found most sessions that I've attended to be pretty tolerant. If you're a regular and have shown that you have the chops or are working on them, your fellow musicians probably won't be outraged if you do something different now and then, just for variety. Also, I've found that musicians are generally open to whatever children play (I've often joined the applause for "Twinkle, Twinkle"), and to visitors as well ("You're from Sweden? Can you play a tune from your country.") That's quite different from going to a session and playing Top 40 hits in the manner you'd play them anywhere else with no regard for the genre. I have extremely broad musical tastes by the way, and have no objection to the numerous open stages or unnamed jams around town. In my experience, most develop a dominant style of music after a while. However, if I were to take up bluegrass and wanted to increase my skills, I'd go to a bluegrass session to learn by playing with bluegrassers, not "adult contemporary" (or whatever) musicians. Like most others, I think that an openly advertised session should be welcoming and encouraging to both newcomers and musicians not skilled in the genre but willing to lean.

[Mark Gunter]

In my neck of the woods, most Bluegrass jams and stage shows are just that: Bluegrass. But that's not saying that sometimes, a more "Newgrass" edge might pop up on a few songs in the sense that a song from another genre might be played in Bluegrass style. I've brought the Traveling Wibury's tune "Poor House" into the mix with good success at a couple of jams.

As a primarily non-bluegrass player myself, I appreciate the larger events, like the monthly Pearl Bluegrass Jam and Stage Show in Pearl, Texas where there are often a couple hundred in attendance, because it is a serious Bluegrass event, yet there are so many small groups formed away from the core where you can get into a little Western Swing, Blues, Folk and Country from time to time.

It all depends on who's there and who decides to group up and do what. But the core is straight ahead Bluegrass. Good old Bluegrass on the stage, and plenty of Bluegrass jam groups.

Closer to home for me, in Cleburne, TX there is a much smaller Bluegrass Jam and Stage Show that is well and away straight ahead Bluegrass, and not too many players on many months.

[newton]

Even if we can’t agree on labels, can we all agree that I’m better off than many with my boys’ musical preference over their friends’ Taylor Swift and Beyoncé - praise Goodness that I’m not dealing with that as a competitor!

I mean, no, not for me. I like a lot of Taylor and Beyonce's music.

It's just that if you want to do a T-Swizzle song at a bluegrass jam, you'll have more success if you know how bluegrass generally "works". Generally, you learn this from Monroe, the Stanleys, Flatt & Scruggs, Jimmy Martin, Jim & Jesse.

Billy Strings is a great example of this. Coming up through the parking lot jams, knowing as much Monroe and Stanley Brothers as about anyone, but then expanding his repertoire.

I think you have to have spent some time "inside the box" of a type of music before you can "think outside the box" of it.

[Ranald]

I think you have to have spent some time "inside the box" of a type of music before you can "think outside the box" of it.

Agreed. I play Cape Breton traditional music and Canadian Old Time fiddling. These styles of music, while still easily recognizable, have changed considerably over time, but the changes come from people grounded in the tradition or who haveve immersed themselves in it, who then push the boundaries, as John Hartford, Del McCoury, and Billy Strings did with bluegrass. Even then, if one pushes the boundaries too much, brilliant as the musician may be, they often lose their original audience (which may be less important to them than a succssful career in music). Change in a tradition doesn't come from people outside the tradition coming to sessions then playing popular tunes, without learning the style played in the session. As an older Irish musician said, "I'd have a lot more respect for people who say that the traditional has to change if they understood the tradition that they claim to be changing" -- or words to that effect.

[Caberguy]

I’m sure I am overly sensitive on the topic, because I have two young learners who consider Trampled by Turtles, Yonder Mountain String Band, Newgrass Revival, and Bluegrass Album Band, all to be “bluegrass,” and I don’t know exactly how to correct them.

There's nothing to correct (arguably).

Is bluegrass a body of work, a repertoire, or it's a way of playing and instrumentation? If it must be both to "qualify," then bluegrass is a dead genre. And I don't think that's the case. Have there been no new bluegrass songs written since Bill died, or Sonny, or whoever the landmark is.

If it's a style and instrumentation influenced (but not strictly defined by) a body of work, then it's just another form of folk music that we all own and can do with what we will. Is "Blue Moon of Kentucky" really a bluegrass song just because Bill wrote it, what's bluegrass about it musically? It's basically straight up country blues, sounds more like Hank than bluegrass. Was it still bluegrass when Elvis covered it? What about "In the Pines"? Bluegrass when Bill played it, but not when Nirvana did? Why, because of the instrumentation, or because it was Bill? Fine when Bill did it, but not at the local jam?

The target seems to move constantly. It's bluegrass just because Bill did it? Does that mean that it's not bluegrass just because somebody else did? If Bill can play country blues and we all call it bluegrass, and it's "ok" for Bill to do covers in a bluegrass style, why is it objectionable elsewhere... he set the precedent. What about the improvisational part... he set the precedent there too, but "Jamgrass" takes it too far? Where's the line?

There are certainly gray areas, and what do you do with those? Some folks just want to dismiss it. Does one have to play bluegrass 100% of the time to be a bluegrass musician. I think it's fair to say that Yonder Mountain String Band "isn't a bluegrass band" in a strict sense, but on the other hand, I see absolutely no problem with calling them a bluegrass band, and do so fairly frequently (though, I'm more apt to use the term Jamgrass). The thing is, at times they absolutely are a straight ahead bluegrass band (and in its current iteration moreso than ever), but certainly this isn't the case much of the time. Probably not when they're playing Ozzy Osborne. But are they not a bluegrass band playing bluegrass when they do "Red Rocking Chair"? Would you say that Tony Rice isn't a bluegrass guitarist because he didn't play bluegrass 100% of the time? Maybe a more nuanced answer would be called for. "Nine Pound Hammer," yes. "California Autumn," no.

By all means, play the music that you want to play and listen to the music that you want to hear. Tradition is important, but it doesn't mean that innovation isn't important too.

And, count your blessings that you are able to find the opportunities around you. Not much going on around these parts... I've been thinking of trying to start something up myself.

[Kenny]

+1 Caberguy
There will always be self-appointed music [or grammar/language] police and their quests will always be Quixotic. The inevitability of change will not be denied so we need to reconcile ourselves to “bluegrass” of today vs. Bill Monroe’s bluegrass (apply this to your genre of interest and the associated exemplar). I’ll own up to occasionally cursing the darkness so I’m no paragon but often enough I recognize my puritanism and try to back down.

OTOH If a jam is promoted as BG I will hope that the preponderance of tunes fits that mold. If that isn’t the case, I’ll hitch up my braces and hope there’ll at least be something I’ll enjoy playing.

[journeybear]

... my annual jam and cookout is not a summer event, but rather a fall pig roast. So if any of you fine folks are around the Lakes Region of New Hampshire (closer to the Maine side to be more specific) this Oct 7 send me a message

Dang! I was just up that way - a rare occurrence - a few weeks ago. Well, more along the seaside, but still, in New Hampshah. As far as 10/7 goes, that will be my first weekend in my new place in SC, coincidentally the day of the monthly jam session - open mic - bluegrass show operated by the SEBGA in a town some 30 miles away. That's where I'll be, meeting some folks, maybe giving them a bit of an idea of who I am, generally getting acclimated to my new community. So, sorry - maybe next year.

We will be serving up a whole hog cooked in the Carolina Style (my original homeland) so if you’re game c’mon.

Also part of the acclimation process will be learning what's what in Carolina barbecue. When I recently was going on about the virtues of a restaurant in the next town over, my friend assumed I was talking about a mustard-based approach. I was not; that's not what this place does, it seems it's some sort of dry rub. I also recalled encountering a vinegar-based style in Eastern Carolikna many years ago, which wasn't quite my cup of sauce. I'm wondering where in all this is your approach, as it seems there are a few styles available in the Carolinas.

I'll further muddy the waters here with what I've grown quite fond of here in the Keys, a Cuban style whole hog style: soaking the meat in mojo, a citrus-garlic-spice marinade, then essentiially baking it in a wooden box lined with sheet metal big enough for the job. Lovely stuff. Gonna miss it.

[swampy]

Journeybear, the Cuban style is amazing, had a taste of it a few years back. You are astute in your observation that South Carolina is somewhat of a BBQ crossroads with three distinct BBQ regions. I will be representing my mother’s side of the family from the midlands by utilizing a mustard based sauce and a hog that is primarily seasoned with both a dry rub to start and continual basting with an apple cider vinegar mixture. It will be smoked butterfly style in a cinder block pit.

[Mark Gunter]

@journeybear - Wow, that's quite a change in geographical locale. I hope all goes well with the move, and that you find plenty of musical compadres in proximity to your new digs. Though we've never met, I've certainly enjoyed what I've read of your 15,001 posts so far. Best wishes for this new chapter in the Book of Journeybear!

@swampy - thanks for sharing your plans and your recipe, and for the interesting map!

[Mark Gunter]

@Caberguy - Wow, what a poignant response. You are on to something there, and I like the way you wrote about it. One thing though, that I'd like to point out, the version of In The Pines that Cobain did in that unplugged session was not only (IMHO) brilliant, it was closer to an older version of the song than what Bill did with it. No one knows just how old that song is, but Cobain was living/performing the blues version of it that he had gotten from listening to Huddie Ledbetter's version, in the Blues genre. I'd have to check the dates to be certain, but I believe that Leadbelly's version predates Bill's. Neverless, it is known that the song developed on several different tracks that diverge at points in history and converge at other points - much like trains and tracks tend to do.

Cobain adding that deep howling from the depths of his soul really gives that tune legs, and a haunting edge - much like the bluegrass versions do with the harmony singing of the windy howls.

What an awesome old song!

[journeybear]

You are astute in your observation that South Carolina is somewhat of a BBQ crossroads with three distinct BBQ regions.

Thanks for clarifying that ... somewhat ... I'll be in the vinegar/pepper region according to the map, even though that does not explain what's going on with the place I've been going to - Shuler's in Latta. Seems like a dry rub for the ribs, with a healthy dose of pepper, probably red pepper, too, because they've got a bit of heat. Not too much, just right. That also seemed to be the case at the only other place I've been, a sort of chichi place in downtown Florence, the nearest big-ish city. There may be a bit of vinegar involved at Shuler's I dunno, can't taste it, but definitely not mustard. What you've got going in your recipe looks and sounds outstanding. I'll have to get up there next year.