Octave mandolin and mandocello

[Nick Royal]

When you see them, they look the same to me. How are they different?
Both in tuning and sound?

[Ray(T)]

Whilst I can’t ever remember playing a ‘cello, I would imagine that the difference is much the same as between a mandolin and a mandola - the OM being an octave lower than a mandolin and a ‘cello being an octave lower than a mandola.

[Jairo Ramos Parra]

Nick, read this thread:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...cello-Confused

[tmsweeney]

octave mandolin is one octave below mandolin GDAE the open D is the same pitch as the open D on a guitar

mandocello is one octave below mandola tuned CGDA or same pitch as a cello, the open D is the same pitch as the open D on a guitar

the two instruments over lap the G, D, and A open strings

[chris.burcher]

To me, these also vary with ease of transition and playability for those who already know how to play mandolin. Octave mandolin is a big mandolin tuned exactly one octave lower - meaning everything is 'bigger' and 'longer'. The left hand reaches are longer and the fretboard is wider, but it is very natural and 'easy' to play all the stuff you know on mandolin. Versus the mandocello, because when you play all the same stuff there, it's in a different key. Plus 'cellos are a bit wider and longer even than an OM in the scale length but all of that can vary because, unlike mandolins there is a more range for those specs than on mandolins. Or less adherence to strict parameters. Mandolins can come in 'wide nut' or radius, but pretty much are the same on the fretboard. This is not as true on octave mandolins OR mandocellos. Soundwise OMs and 'cellos can be very close or extremely different, depending, given all of that variation and loose parameters. Just gotta go play them. I made a trek to a big music store and just played everything with 8 strings that wasn't a 'regular' mandolin. Unfortunately, that's the best and quickest way to answer your question. But hopefully my extreme run-on sentences and rambling helps a little.

[5Guitars]

This graphic (from the Weber website) may help:

[gspiess]

And if you really want to be confused, here is what happens when you put one of each in a dark closet:https://youtu.be/0lAmlLleozg?si=5CF3v8Dh2MBkBgne

[Jim Imhoff]

Apart from the tuning, size, and looks (my 1912 Gibson K4 looks nothing like an octave) I have some questions about origins. Historically I believe the mandocello in America* was intended (by Orville Gibson) to play the cello part in string quartets made up of mandolins, and that's what I do in the Oregon Mandolin Orchestra. It is tuned just like a cello, low CGDA. It looks, sounds, and plays very differently from my Trinity Octave. It is also a bit more difficult to play because of the length and heaviness of the strings. I started too late to ever get really good at it.
*[Slightly different story in European instruments, including the 10-string liuto cantabile]

I read bass clef (I'm a singer and choral conductor) and I always loved cello music, but never played one. So I do not think of the mandocello as a large mandolin tuned differently, I think of it as a plucked cello, tuned exactly right. So yes, if you "play the same stuff" on the same frets it will come out in a different key. But if you take the instrument on its own it can play anything in any key. I don't play much bluegrass on the MC, mostly classical and orchestral, but I can play Whiskey before Breakfast and Salt Creek right along with any mandolin in the same key--on the appropriate strings for a mandocello--not the "wrong" strings. And probably not as fast, but that's my old arthritic fingers.
My point is the mandocello has a history and function all its own, it's not just a big mandolin tuned differently, any more than a cello is a just big violin. I have to admit I do not have the same background on the octave. A classical mandolin quartet intentionally mirrors the bowed string family: 1st and 2nd Mandolin, Mandola (alto clef), and Mandocello (bass clef). I do not know the origins or history of the octave mandolin and would like to hear from those who do.

[mandocello8]

good question. in the nut shell, they are "same thing" or "completely unrelated", depending on your view.

GDAE octave mandolin is a hybrid instrument, "mandolin and guitar in one bottle", you can play tunes, you can strum chords.

CGDA mandocello is an octave mandolin, "add low C, remove high E", you can still play tunes, strum chords,

(for a few $$$ more, you can keep the high E, and play a CGDAE cittern, but many people play 5-course citterns in alternative tunings. many old Gibson mandocellos today are tuned GDAE and are used as octave mandolins).

alternate narrative:

mandocello is a mandolin orchestra (circa 1900-1920, but still popular i.e. in Japan) member that corresponds to cello in bowed string orchestra. musician is expected to play bass clef music as directed by composer and arranger.


(same Mike Marshall playing same mandocello in both videos)

these days, the two narratives moved closer together. Apocalyptica, Rushad E., Natalie Hass & co liberated the cello from the back of the string orchestra (with the dog house bass following closely, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxpKSrhIwa8, tune by the sweedish band Vasen) and it is now cool to play tunes and strum chords on cello. (something mandocellers knew all along).

or you can ignore all that and use a mandocello as a rock-and-roll axe. (Shawn Spenser, band Spellbox)

[Jim Imhoff]

Disagree on a couple points; yes that's Mike playing MC with Catherina, but not sure who the MC player is in the MMQ; Marshall is on mandolin. Recently, MMQ has had Radim Zenkl and Adam Roscowicz on mandocello; Radim also played mandola on some of their events. Maybe somebody can ID the mandocello player in these MMQ videos.
EDIT: followed the video to the end, that is John Imholz on MC.

Also, I do agree with the second view, mandocello as an orchestral instrument equivalent to a bowed cello, and yes, very big in Japan. But we are raising American awareness and visibility of the big guy here on the Cafe and at CMSA events. We had 25 mandocellos a few years ago (pre-pandemic) at Normal Illinois, and we have played mandocello ensemble (that's a four part all-MC group) compositions as well as mandocello solos at these events. Mandoln Orchestras all over the US and Canada have mandocellos as part of the group. Apart from orchestral parts, there is serious music as well as fun tunes written specifically for solo mandocello, and I urge people to check out Mike Marshall's Bach Suites and Luke William Wright's new album TANGENTS for mandocello.
I see plenty of entries about octaves, but don't know the history or origins; I do know that it is "somewhat unrelated" (maybe not completely) to the mandocello, beyond just the different tuning.

[Mandochemist]

The online mandolin lesson biz must be good. Baron always seems to have some really nice instruments.

[tmsweeney]

Well there is such a thing as an octave violin (violect?), but I don't know how recently in history it first appeared.

Mandolin Family instruments belong to the greater Phyla of Lutes (which are an offshoot of the much older lyre and harp).

The variation on lute like instruments through out the centuries would be a thick book indeed, and one I would probably peruse often.

Its highly possible a craftsman in Europe produced octave mandolins on occasion, but probably not naming it that.

Finding that in a historical record is a bit like looking for a black cat in a dark room that might not be there.

[Jim Garber]

It is funny that no one mentioned the scale length differences. OMs usually 20”-23” and mandocellos 24 and often longer.

Also in Europe mandola often refers to same as North American OM and is also called octave mandola. What we call mandola is referred to as tenor mandola and tuned CGDA.

[Jim Imhoff]

It is funny that no one mentioned the scale length differences. OMs usually 20”-23” and mandocellos 24 and often longer.
Also in Europe mandola often refers to same as North American OM and is also called octave mandola. What we call mandola is referred to as tenor mandola and tuned CGDA.

One more reason I was puzzled by the "they look the same" start to the thread. Also, I try to be clear about "American usage" because I know names and tunings are different in many European countries. Different historical developments as well, with names like Gibson and Monroe being very influential in the States. Going to a major bluegrass festival this weekend, I wonder how many players heard of Emberger or Calace. I remember someone asking me why people write things like "CGDA" Mandola and GDAE Octave. Seems like the best way to clarify what instrument you are talking about.

[mandocello8]

@JI, thank you for sorting out the modern mandolin quartet players, and I agree with you on mandocello origin as orchestral instrument.
@tms, octave violin is a regular violin with special fat strings tuned one octave below normal. requires minor adjustment to the violin, full reversible. sounds amazing, but acoustically is on the quiet side.

Historically, I think it is the octave mandolin that is a mongrel interloper. For me, it kind of explains the variation in scale length and body type.

Did anybody research and write up the history of the octave mandolin? Shooting from the hip, I would guess many possible inventors:
- the first person to string a Gibson mandocello with GDAE strings
- the person who saw an army-navy pancake and asked "can you make me a guitar sized one?" (was flatiron first to make pancake octaves?)
- the irish crowd, "my greek bouzouki fell apart, make me a new one! sure, how about a large mandolin instead?"
- James Jones in Virginia was building octaves maybe since 1978, why did he start, was there anybody before him?

(edit) perhaps I should watch the oldest youtube videos to see what people played back then. I think on the irish side oldest would be the greek bouzouki in the 1970-ies, then nothing, just small mandolins.

[Jim Garber]

Interesting, mandocello8: I would add the the history questions whether the Regal Octophone, introduced in 1928 could have been used as an early OM. 21” scale it was advertised to play in multiple tunings one of which was octave tuning. Of course tenor instruments existed before that and I would guess that some folks might have tuned to OM tuning back in those days.

I have a Calace bowlback mandola which IIRC has a 17” scale but was recommended for two tunings: CGDA or octave GDAE. I am not sure when the shop started to build those. Mine was from 1974.

[mrmando]

The octave mandolin is not a derivative of the mandolin. It's the other way round.

The instrument developed in Italy prior to the Renaissance was called a mandola, and its closest living relative is the so-called "octave mandolin." Mandolino means "little mandola"; the bigger instrument was developed first. Yes, the mandolin is more popular but the octave mandolin is actually older.

I'm not certain that Orville Gibson invented the mandocello. Calace and other Italian bowlback makers were big believers in the liuto cantabile, which is basically a 10-string mandocello; it wouldn't surprise me if they also were making 8-string versions before Orville came along.

American builders probably should get credit for the CGDA instrument that Americans call a mandola.

The mandocello tends to have a beefier neck than the octave mandolin — I guess that's because it has to stand up to more string tension.

[Jim Garber]

The joys of nomenclature! The CGDA mandola is also called the alto mandola and the mandoliola. Sometimes even the tenor mandola though I think that usually refers to the GDAE tuned version.

[foldedpath]

Historically, I think it is the octave mandolin that is a mongrel interloper. For me, it kind of explains the variation in scale length and body type.

Did anybody research and write up the history of the octave mandolin? Shooting from the hip, I would guess many possible inventors:
- the first person to string a Gibson mandocello with GDAE strings
- the person who saw an army-navy pancake and asked "can you make me a guitar sized one?" (was flatiron first to make pancake octaves?)
- the irish crowd, "my greek bouzouki fell apart, make me a new one! sure, how about a large mandolin instead?"
- James Jones in Virginia was building octaves maybe since 1978, why did he start, was there anybody before him?

I agree the octave mandolin is something of a mongrel from the Classical music perspective. But of course that's just one perspective. Us non-classical OM players find plenty of other uses for it.

As for the history, my very loose understanding of it is that several builders in the late 70's into the 80's like Flatiron and then Weber started offering them as something different. The adaptation of the greek bouzouki in Irish trad was a separate and unrelated (AFAIK) development.

However! If we're talking about "big Gibson" style OMs, then the touchstone is much earlier with a 1904 Orville-labeled Gibson octave mandolin. Feast your eyes on it in this earlier thread from the Cafe:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...ctave-Mandolin

I don't know if we ever figured out if this was a one-off custom order or more were made. I suspect a custom order because I don't recall any others showing up. So there is apparently a big gap between the 1904 Gibson OM and the reemergence of the OM in the late 70's and 80's. Was nobody building and playing the OM during that time?

Anyway, responding to the OP, I think of the octave mandolin as the ideal lower pitch instrument for those who play "fiddle tunes" in the OldTime, Bluegrass, and Irish/Scottish trad genres, due to the GDAE tuning and a scale short enough to be playable with mandolin or modified mandolin fingering. I use my Weber OM for chord-melody arrangements of slower Irish/Scottish trad tunes like marches, "slow reels" and airs, and switch to the more nimble mandolin for the up-tempo dance tunes.

[Jim Imhoff]

The octave mandolin is not a derivative of the mandolin. It's the other way round.

The instrument developed in Italy prior to the Renaissance was called a mandola, and its closest living relative is the so-called "octave mandolin." Mandolino means "little mandola"; the bigger instrument was developed first. Yes, the mandolin is more popular but the octave mandolin is actually older.

I'm not certain that Orville Gibson invented the mandocello. Calace and other Italian bowlback makers were big believers in the liuto cantabile, which is basically a 10-string mandocello; it wouldn't surprise me if they also were making 8-string versions before Orville came along.

American builders probably should get credit for the CGDA instrument that Americans call a mandola.

The mandocello tends to have a beefier neck than the octave mandolin — I guess that's because it has to stand up to more string tension.

Yes to all that, and I forgot I had read that historically the "mandolino" as a little mandola. I did not make that connection to the octave, but it's a good point. And yes, Gibson did not invent the mandocello, that's why I was careful about American/European distinctions. I think any discussion in this area needs to have separate threads and definitions for American vs European traditions. My point was that Gibson's K models were intended and marketed to serve as the cello in a plucked quartet or orchestra in the US and Canada.
I doubt there will ever be a definitive and universally agreed on naming system for mandolins, any more than there is for musical styles. Foldedpath's comment is correct, it depends on your perspective; my dissertation was a study of how personal experience and level-of-expertise influence the way you categorize anything, from dog breeds to musical styles to 8 string plucked things.

[urobouros]

I've always viewed scale length as the main difference between the various mandolin family members. The longer the scale length demands variations in playing syle from one to the other depending on the players' reach. I think the biggest difference with a longer scale length is resonance so that drives my playing style with OMs vs mandolins. For me, the longer bouzouki & mandocello scales are great for playing chords & shorter scales are better for speed.

[Beanzy]

Just for some added context here are some early 1900s examples with their stats, from the "Bowlbacks of note" thread (running at 7388 posts so it would be cruel & useless just referring people there)

Mandoloncello from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1911
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 1145mm width 373mm depth 220mm. scale length 740mm



Mandoloncello from the Monzino luthiery, maker Riva Severino 1909
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 950mm width 311mm depth 96mm ? scale length 576mm


Lombard Mandoloncello ,no label.
Thought to be from the Monzino luthiery, attributed to maker Marino Gennaro, approximate years 1900-1910
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 952 mm width 322mm depth 154mm. scale length 570mm


And an example of an octave mandolin from then:

Mandola from the Monzino luthiery, maker Marino Gennaro 1906
Part of the Castello Sforzesco musical instrument collection Milan
Length 737mm width 259mm depth 167mm. scale length 415mm


Here's a mandoloncello in the style of Vinaccia (no proper provenance seen in the auction info, so possibly a later 1800s reproduction)


As you can see the scale lengths and other dimensions varied quite a bit. Generally you can have quite a big window for each type.
However the general extra bulk of the mandoloncello is clear.

[mandocello8]

yummy bowl backs, thanks!

[DavidKOS]

Thanks for all the interesting posts!

And to add to this thread, I've been using one of these as a mandocello:



https://salamuzik.com/blogs/news/all...-turkish-lavta

Turkish Lavta.

[Denis Kearns]

And when they are on the couch:

Left to right: all Webers - mandocello, octave mandolin, mandola, mandolin, and the Weber sweet pea (excellent for backpacking).