What’s in a Scroll?

[journeybear]

It seems a bit like cutaways on acoustic guitars. You either dig 'em or you don't

Well ... I get that, but a cutaway does serve a purpose, making fretting higher notes easier, and it was designed for that. The scroll's most common use is as a strap-hanger, which it was not designed for. AFAIK.

[JeffD]

The scroll, and all the little pointy curve extensions, come from the artistic trends of the times it was created. The beginning of the last century, and the end of the one before. Art Deco, or really more Art Nouveau. I saw this descriptive phrase regarding Art Nouveau: "The style is characterized by the raw force of nature, showing dynamic, whiplash curves and motifs."

So as intended it was pure decorative exuberance, with little or no functional considerations.

And largely because Bill Monroe picked one of these, it has become the essential design.

[JFDilmando]

For interest and associated scroll building.... you can take a look at how Gilchrist builds his beautiful instruments on his website.... he documents his batch builds with lots of detailed photos as he goes along through his build.
http://www.gilchristmandolins.com/current

[tiltman]

I am always puzzled by the people who think an F is just an A with wingy-dingies.

1) because blindfolded, you can't tell the difference in sound between an A and an F (if, big if, all other variables are controlled)

2) my heart is always broken by threads titled "best F-style for under $800...". Anyone spending less than 2 grand on a mandolin should be concentrating on playability and tone - not bullsh*%t and bling

I don't really have a dog in this fight...I'm fortunate enough to have several A's and F's - I like them all! But I know that scrolls and points don't necessarily make a better mandolin - or make me a better player.

Kirk

[poul hansen]

A lot has been said here but a pressing question poses itself: DOES THE SCROLL ON THE HEAD AFFECT THE TONE

[Hendrik Ahrend]

A lot has been said here but a pressing question poses itself: DOES THE SCROLL ON THE HEAD AFFECT THE TONE

Now you done it! No hijacking of the thread!

[journeybear]

I am fairly certain that the removal of mass from the headstock as shown on this mandolin did not affect its tone.

[Dave Cohen]

That's because only about 6 grams or so was removed in that "operation". And, the tuners plus grommets plus screws weigh in the neighborhood of anywhere from ~150 grams to around 170 grams.

[TX2AK]

I don’t think most audiences are paying attention to nuances in tone. I play bass in one band, and we play loud shows and quiet “listening venues.” When I play my ‘54 Kay double bass, instead of my Fender P - literally, 100% of the time, I get multiple comments on how “cool,” “sexy,” etc. my Kay is (or jokingly how sexy I am) - not one single time has anyone commented on anything related to sound; not complexity of my playing, nor the sound of the instrument. I could play the Fender A I bought in college and my Ellis F, and I would bet the farm that 99-100% of the audience, if they noticed me at all, would notice a difference in appearance before sound. In fact I have played both for friends, and got, “they both sound like mandolins,” but your new one is really pretty (non-musicians). Not to mention, some of us hang our instruments as part of our decor and to have them handy; and aesthetics are important there too. I’m not trying to tell anyone else what they should value, I’m just pointing out that aesthetics are a perfectly valid consideration.

The original question is whether or not there is a functional reason; I think appearance is a valid functional consideration (and I think they feel different too). The response at the beginning, “Yes” and “Yes,” is spot on to me.

[Jeff Mando]

Seems like two camps, but I don't see it that way. Both styles are good. I think it is fair to want a scroll even on a limited budget, kind of like wanting cowboy boots and someone suggesting tennis shoes -- most people want the LOOK they want, even if the sound might be less good. It should be noted, a lot of the fine points of tone will be lost on a beginner anyway, IMHO.

[journeybear]

I agree. That's why the best answer to the OP's question was that early one, of "yes" to both either/or questions.

Speaking from personal experience, I essentially swapped out my starter, a teens Gibson A, for an F-12, after nine years, because I liked the snazzy futuristic look. It was fairly new, and this was the late 70s, so as I learned after thirty years of playing it, it was not a great instrument after all, and would never "open up." I found this out after it was stolen and I joined the Café as one part of my efforts to find or replace it. I also learned that humble A model was more mandolin than the F-12 would ever be. It sounded fine when amplified and tweaked, which was what I tended to do at gigs, but acoustically ... I did replace it - with a teens plain A - and I've never looked back. It may not look futuristic or sexy or rock 'n' roll, but it sounds that way.

This is not to say this is how it always is - obviously - but it's something to keep in mind. Looks aren't everything, particularly when it comes to musical instruments. It's the sound the mandolin produces that counts the most.

[David Lewis]

This. It’s is the rococo style of the what we call here and in Britain the Victorian or Edwardian era. In the US I guess it’s called something else. Art Deco - form and function - starts a bit later.

[JeffD]

A lot has been said here but a pressing question poses itself: DOES THE SCROLL ON THE HEAD AFFECT THE TONE

The answer is no.

Of course no two mandolins sound the same. But whatever differences there are, there are no class differences between F body and A body, and any detected sound differences cannot be attributed to the body type A or F.

So... no.

[Mark Gunter]

Appearance is no part of function; rather, it has to do with form. Form and function are generally two distinct and separate aspects of a thing, though form is often informed, and sometimes dictated, by function. In the case of the F model scrolls, I don’t think form was much related to function. It was related to aesthetics, as neatly articulated by Jeff a few posts up (post #27).

[HoGo]

From builders perspective I should say there IS difference in sound between the body styles. There's significant extra mass in the F style and also some extra air volume so that's GOTTA have some impact on how the thing vibrates (and produces sound). BUT you'd have to make an exact matched pair form same woods to exactly same specs to show the difference. Mandolins do vary so much even within the same style so generally telling apart A and F is completely futile unless one has absolutely genial ears and receives training on many such matched pairs of A-F mandolins to know what to listen for.
Perhaps spectral analysis of tone (like violin makers often do) might show a peak or dip in response that is specific to A or F bodies but may not be discernible by human ear.
Heck, some folks cannot even hear difference between oval and f hole models...

[j. condino]

I've played about 50 Lloyd Loar signed mandolins and my personal favorite is the Griffith A5.

[pheffernan]

From builders perspective I should say there IS difference in sound between the body styles. There's significant extra mass in the F style and also some extra air volume so that's GOTTA have some impact on how the thing vibrates (and produces sound).

I've played about 50 Lloyd Loar signed mandolins and my personal favorite is the Griffith A5.

I’ve been told that the Griffith A5 actually has extra air volume compared to the f-style Loars.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

I’ve been told that the Griffith A5 actually has extra air volume compared to the f-style Loars.

Quite likely, as the (Griffith) A5 body has the larger size of an (oval hole) A model – as opposed to modern Gibson A5s, which are essentially stripped F-model bodies.

[musicofanatic]

Seems like two camps, but I don't see it that way. Both styles are good. I think it is fair to want a scroll even on a limited budget, kind of like wanting cowboy boots and someone suggesting tennis shoes -- most people want the LOOK they want, even if the sound might be less good. It should be noted, a lot of the fine points of tone will be lost on a beginner anyway, IMHO.

Have you ever purchased and worn cheap cowboy boots? Anyone who suggests tennis shoes over "limited budget" cowboy boots deserves profuse thanks!