Irish Bouzouki vs. Greek Bouzouki

[garryireland]

Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.

[Rob Zamites]

Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.

Don't you still have your APC? What's wrong with that one?

[Nick Gellie]

I'm curious, are you playing Greek music or something else? Because I can't see how an Irish instrument would be better for Greek music....but I can understand it if you are playing Celtic music or some other non-Greek music.

I play Greek and other Middle eastern music on my bouzouki, not irish tunes or such, so perhaps we are not playing the same repertoire.

I actually play both Celtic and Balkan music, particularly Balkan and Macedonian music.

Akin to Roger I have been on a similar quest to find a 'flat backed' Irish Bouzouki that could sound like a cross between a Greek and an Irish Bouzouki and have less of a guitar sound. I think Roger is on to it in designing a small bodied staved back instrument. I had an Abnett 5-course octave mandolin recently that had a nice top end like a Greek Bouzouki but the bottom end was too boomy and bassy for me. It was had a short scale (20.5"). I prefer the tone of a longer scale flat backed bouzouki. It also made its way from Europe to Australia as well and held up well in our dry Australian climate. It is now in the hands of another Australian who lives in Sydney and loves it.

In another thread on CBOM Bob Abram's 5 course Irish Bouzouki played by Carol Coronis has a great sound when she sings Greek songs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6niWkm1rEs). She tunes it to DAEAE but sometimes DADAD. I think that the tuning she uses also plays a part in the sound she is getting from her instrument. I also find that even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic particularly when amplified.

I have also had conversations with Joe Foley recently. He makes his bouzoukis to sound like those of the early days of Planxty. Again he achieves this with a small bodied flat backed Irish Bouzouki. He is still passionate about his instruments. I think that that is great after so many years building Irish Bouzoukis.

[zoukboy]

Ive been thinking about getting a greek zouk strung gdad. Itsamazing the difference in price copared to our "Irish" zouks.

Garry:

I have a friend who has done this and it sounds very good (it's a high quality Greek tetrachordo). The main difference is the sound of the low G course is not nearly as substantial as on most Irish style zouks.

[Nick Gellie]

This K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki typifies the sound of the jangly 'Planxty' Style Irish Bouzouki, here played by Donnal Lunny:



There is not too much bass coming through. It has a nice bass without too much boominess characteristic of a lot of Irish Bouzoukis made these days. Notice that it too has a small body. BTW the back and sides are made from Ovangkol tonewood, which is used in Taylor Guitars (http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars...woods/ovangkol). It also is a sustainably produced tonewood.

[garryireland]

Don't you still have your APC? What's wrong with thadi ht one?

i had to sell all my instruments...

[Nick Gellie]

Garry,

What happened - did you lose your job or take on a mortgage? Did you sell them all?

Where are you now in your quest for a bouzouki? Are you tending to an Irish or a Greek bouzouki?

[DavidKOS]

I also find that even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic particularly when amplified.

I have also had conversations with Joe Foley recently. He makes his bouzoukis to sound like those of the early days of Planxty. Again he achieves this with a small bodied flat backed Irish Bouzouki. He is still passionate about his instruments. I think that that is great after so many years building Irish Bouzoukis.

Foley is a fine maker, judging from the handful of his instruments I have played.

"even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic"

That's part of the instrument, and to me a big part of what the typical Irish maker is trying to avoid.

Thanks for your insights.

[garryireland]

Garry,

What happened - did you lose your job or take on a mortgage? Did you sell them all?

Where are you now in your quest for a bouzouki? Are you tending to an Irish or a Greek bouzouki?

Work has gone sideways and the kids had to have a christmas

[Mike Anderson]

Work has gone sideways and the kids had to have a christmas

Oh damn it all, so sorry to hear that - not the kids having Christmas, I am in the same boat, but the work. Have had to sell many instruments in the past myself, so I relate. That's why I could never have ordered the Andy Irvine books and DVD for myself, but am so grateful my brother and wife got them for me.

Only one thing to do eh? Get something that pays the bills and hopefully lets you save for a good instrument or two. That's my resolution for 2015. Just glad I have my TC and my bodhran. And if you want something bespoke instead of a used instrument do think about Foley when the time comes Garry - he's in Dublin (no shipping or duty or any of that crap), you could meet the man and tell him exactly what you want. And you'd have a lifetime instrument of great quality and beauty and playability. So I hear anyway. Good luck man!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Foley is a fine maker, judging from the handful of his instruments I have played.

"even a top end Greek bouzouki can sound a bit raw and metallic"

That's part of the instrument, and to me a big part of what the typical Irish maker is trying to avoid.

Thanks for your insights.

Actually it's not what the Irish makers used to avoid. Roger's zouk is the closest to a Greek zouk tuned GGDDAADD and with unison strings that I've heard - just like the older zouks Andy and Donal used to play. Even Joe Foley's modern zouks have that almost no break angle and little downward pressure on the bridge like a Greek zouk which seem to accentate the jangly sound.
The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great. If I wanted a "Lunney" sound I'd go for a Greek zouk, an Andy Manson, a Peter Abnett, a Joe Foley, or a Herb Taylor. I'd be looking at a min of 24" and a max of 27", almost no break angle, and light strings.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Joe Foley's zouks are in big demand and are not inexpensive, whether bought in the US or in Ireland - but they are well worth the price. Easiest way to get hold of Joe is to buy him a pint in O'Donoghue's , Merrion Row, on a Sunday night where he leads an ITM Session...

[Eddie Sheehy]

Thi sis a flatback zouk made by Dio Dinos - low break angle, long scale length (26"), jangly sound. Dio Dinos also made Alec Finns guitar and bowlback zouk.

[DavidKOS]

The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great.

That must be what I've heard more often for quite a while now.

And yes, Foley instruments are reasonable in price for what they are.

[DavidKOS]

Thi sis a flatback zouk made by Dio Dinos - low break angle, long scale length (26"), jangly sound. Dio Dinos also made Alec Finns guitar and bowlback zouk.

Even the Saavas pickup!

[Nick Gellie]

Eddie, What is the break angle used on the Dio Dinos and Foley instruments?

It seems that most of the members who have posted on this thread prefer the jangly sound of the Greek bouzouki and ones made by Joe Foley to the more bottom end sound produced by most American instrument bouzouki makers. How did that come about I wonder?

Maybe they were responding to the requests from guitar players to make a bouzouki sound more like guitar (i.e a smoother more rounded response).

[Eddie Sheehy]

Eddie, What is the break angle used on the Dio Dinos and Foley instruments?

It seems that most of the members who have posted on this thread prefer the jangly sound of the Greek bouzouki and ones made by Joe Foley to the more bottom end sound produced by most American instrument bouzouki makers. How did that come about I wonder?

Maybe they were responding to the requests from guitar players to make a bouzouki sound more like guitar (i.e a smoother more rounded response).

The neck angle on the body appears to be straight and they have a low bridge.
The first short-scale zouk I saw was Tim O'Brien's Giacomel and as he tuned it GGDDAAEE it was possibly the first OM...

[Nick Gellie]

There is one thing that is common with the Irish Bouzoukis (i.e. Foley, Yairi) and Greek Bouzoukis is that they have slim long necks and narrow nuts (approx. 34 mm). A lot of other bouzoukis are made with chunkier necks. According to Jeo Foley, you need a slim neck with narrow neck so that you can move around on the fingerboard. The same would go for a Greek Bouzouki.

[Colin Lindsay]

The first short-scale zouk I saw was Tim O'Brien's Giacomel and as he tuned it GGDDAAEE it was possibly the first OM...

Aren’t we going full circle here? Irish musicians take a greek bouzouki with the longer scale and replicate it using a cittern body and a longer neck. They call it the Irish bouzouki. They then shorten the neck to practically standard OM and tune it GDAE but call it the ’short-scale Irish bouzouki’….. next they’ll widen and flare the body, go for six strings tuned EGBDAE and call it the Irish guitar…

[Nick Gellie]

I agree Colin - we have come full circle. My opinion is that the guitar shape has influenced the emergence of GOMs because it is comfortable to play standing up. I had a Graham McDonald GOM years ago. It was fashionable to have one then and now I suppose. I am not mad keen on the guitar sound that comes from such instruments although Graham McDonald reckons he can make a GOM have more of the bouzouki sound through careful construction, bracing, woods used, etc..

The Sobell GOM suits Andy Irvine in his role as a solo artist. In his days with Planxty he had Donnal Lunny do all that backing work on the Irish Bouzouki to create that jangly sound with the sound of two instruments. Andy Irvine commented on one of his videos that he had to redo the backing when going solo because he longer had the backing of the 'boys' helping him out. When I hear more modern versions of the Irish Bouzouki being played, they do not do much for me. In a way I have gone full circle back to the original Lunny sound. It is wonderful to talk to Joe Foley about it. I love the way he said in his irish accent ' I love seeing players knocking the sparks off a bouzouki when they first get their hands on it'.

[Nick Gellie]

Actually it's not what the Irish makers used to avoid. Roger's zouk is the closest to a Greek zouk tuned GGDDAADD and with unison strings that I've heard - just like the older zouks Andy and Donal used to play. Even Joe Foley's modern zouks have that almost no break angle and little downward pressure on the bridge like a Greek zouk which seem to accentate the jangly sound.
The trend here in the USA is to go for shorter scale lengths, heavier strings, big break angle, serious pressure on bridge and this changes the sound completely - but it still sounds great. If I wanted a "Lunney" sound I'd go for a Greek zouk, an Andy Manson, a Peter Abnett, a Joe Foley, or a Herb Taylor. I'd be looking at a min of 24" and a max of 27", almost no break angle, and light strings.

I think Donal Lunny's K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki is closer to the 'Lunny' sound than the Herb Taylor prototype Irish Bouzouki. For me there is still quite a lot of bottom end in the Herb Taylor Irish Bouzouki prototype that Roger referred to, based on the sound clip I listened to on Herb Taylor's website.

[Francis J]

Fascinating to hear comments about the "Donal Lunny sound" as if it has arrived someplace and remained static for ever, The video clips used to illustrate the sound are poor recordings using a camera mic, and picking up some of the PA reverberation in a church. In a music career spanning more than forty years a musician of Donal Lunny's status would have owned and played several dozen instruments, All having the same sound??? I think I detect a small portion of size-envy here! Spoken in my Irish accent.

[garryireland]

Fascinating to hear comments about the "Donal Lunny sound" as if it has arrived someplace and remained static for ever, The video clips used to illustrate the sound are poor recordings using a camera mic, and picking up some of the PA reverberation in a church. In a music career spanning more than forty years a musician of Donal Lunny's status would have owned and played several dozen instruments, All having the same sound??? I think I detect a small portion of size-envy here! Spoken in my Irish accent.

I suppose the point being made is Donal has always had small body zouks, aside fron that Blarge of course. I personally don't like that jangly sound and prefer an arch top or back. Since you are only up the road from me we should have a session!

[Nick Gellie]

There are some other video clips that better illustrate the sound of Donal Lunny's Yairi bouzouki. I just haven't put them up. Like Garry says, my point is that Donal Lunny has had for the most part small bodied bouzoukis starting off with his Abnett which he played for quite a while and features in quite a number of his earlier albums. I have owned an Abnett bouzouki and a cittern in the past. Both were reminiscent of the 'Lunny' tone because of the three pieced staved back in which Roger Landes alluded to Herb Taylor's prototype.

As for size envy, I have none. I just appreciate good tone from an instrument. The jangly sound in a bouzouki has to combine with some smoothness otherwise it would come as too harsh on the ears. It is a fine balance for an instrument maker to try and create that tonal balance. From what I have listened to, the Joe Foley's small bodied Irish bouzouki achieves that. I am not a great fan of the larger bodied irish bouzoukis projecting a boomy bass. By comparison, the Greek Bouzouki has a relatively small body.

[Francis J]

I get the picture Garry, and actually I'm always amused at how this story is told. Fact is that people in Ireland refer to these instruments as "Bouzouki". The name "Irish bouzouki" is one you will never hear in Ireland. We respect the fact that it's a variation of a Greek variation.
Nick Gellie said "I think Donal Lunny's K.Yairi Irish Bouzouki is closer to the 'Lunny' sound" There might be a simple explanation for that Nick!