Matte Finishes

[seththedude]

I know the differences between Laquer and Varnish, but how is the Matte finishe related to these. Is it just a thinner layer of laquer or varnish that is not polished out?
I really like this look and have recently been wondering about any acoustical differences.
What about long term effects of this type of finish? How would it hold up over time? Any reason to steer away from it?

[sunburst]

There are various ways to make a "matte" finish, but, with lacquer, the way to do it is to add a flattener to the lacquer. The flattener refracts light so that the reflections are not sharp and shiney. The film thickness can be just as thin with a gloss lacquer, but it takes more skill and more work.

Surface treatments (sanding, Scotchbrite, steel wool) can give a matte appearance on a gloss lacquer, but the surface will wear shiney, so that you have shiney areas where you, your clothing, or whatever rubs the instrument while you're playing. With a flattener in the finish, it will not wear shiney.

I don't know much about varnish and flatteners, but I'll soon be experimenting because I have to match a matte varnish finish in the near future. Guess I'll learn something in the process.

[Paul Hostetter]

Most of the "matte" finishes on commercial music instruments are technically satin finishes. Matte is really flat by comparison: completely unreflective.

The real point of, for lack of a certain term, non-gloss finishes is to save production time and lower costs. About half the production time for a conventional instrument is spent building, leveling and polishing the lacquer. By contrast, satin-finished instruments are sprayed a few times, with no rubout required. The production time drops greatly, as does the price.

It used to be the flattening agent in lacquer was talc. Besides being somewhat carcinogenic, it also made the resulting finish rather soft, not unlike sanding sealer. Modern satin finishes have a more durable flattening agent, but they work the same. As John says, you can polish them pretty easy simply through use. Most people with satin-finished Martins have already found this out.

Years ago I was dealing Dupont guitars and got a call to provide two guitars for a really iffy Woody Allen film about a guy who thought he was Django. I miraculously got the guitars in no time, but as soon as the movie folks received them, finished in a requested dark brown (!), they realized they'd neglected to tell me they also had to have a matte finish, so the studio lights didn't cause reflections. Back they came, I had Fred Latta, the local lacquer genius here then, overspray them with clear matte. It was then that I discovered matte was a world different than satin. You really don't see matte finishes on instruments.

Since that film came out, the studio sold the matte one to Paul Mehling, thanks to Howard Alden. We took it back to Fred Latta who carefully removed the matte overspray and restored the odd but rather lovely brown gloss finish. The second guitar went directly to Sean Penn as a practice instrument, and he kept it as a souvenir.

[seththedude]

Thanks for the insight. Kind of what I was thinking.

What about long term advantages or disadvantages? Would a satin finish affect the sound at all, or is that a debate similar to laquer vs varnish (we don't need to open that can of worms)?

I am thinking about the IV kit and might like this type of finish. I like the non reflective part of it. It seems the application process can vary widely depending on a spray on satin finish (which might polish itself due to playing over time) and flattening a laquer (which would be a normal type application process).

[sunburst]

First of all, I come down on the minimal-sound-difference-between-finishes side of the debate.
I think there is even less difference between instruments with the same finish, with or without flattener, to the point that I'd say there's no discernable difference in the sound if you add a flattener to the same finish, similarly applied.

[8ch(pl)]

The only thing I didn't like about my Mid Missouri was the matte finish. On the light coloured spruce top it seemed to show the dirt. The instrument looked grubby. I sanded it down and redid it in a semi-gloss. Much improved.

[PaulD]

C'mon, John. Don't you think, over time, the light particles absorbed by satin and matte finishes will increase the mass of the top, thereby deadening the sound?

My Gibson F-9 has the matte/satin finish (whatever they call it) and it has gotten glossy in places from playing. I think it adds a nice touch, a subtle aging effect that shows it's been played.

I'm not sure if you're considering adding flatteners to a gloss finish, but I would recommend for a beginner to purchase a satin finish off the shelf. I know Behlen and KTM both come in gloss or satin. You could even look into tung oil, Watco (although I don't like the new stuff), Tru-Oil, etc. They're easy to apply, and will give you a matte finish. They don't protect the wood as well as lacquers, and they benefit from an occasional touch up (I recommend once every 6 months for the first year and once a year after that to my kaleidoscope customers). They are easy, will provide a degree of moisture protection, and really make wood look like wood instead of plastic!

pd

[sunburst]

C'mon, John. Don't you think, over time, the light particles absorbed by satin and matte finishes will increase the mass of the top, thereby deadening the sound?

...but wouldn't light make it lighter?
...oh, never mind, E, after all does equal MC squared.

[Big Joe]

We do not put flatteners in our gloss finishes to achieve a satin look. We use a flat finish and do not buff it. Since you do not have to build the lacquer up as much when you do not buff, you have a thinner finish and there is a difference in the tone of the instruments. If you play a Gibson Fern and a Gibson Wayne Benson you will hear a difference in the two. In addition, we did build a gloss finish Benson and it sounded like a Fern. How that relates to any other builder I do not know, but for our mandolins there is a tonal difference. Some think the satin is a better sounding mandolin, others think the gloss is. I prefer varnish so it matters not to me .

[joshro78]

Big Joe
Can you tell us what final grit your flat finish is sanded to?

[sunburst]

Two things:

Joshro78, I'm not sure what you mean, but, a flat/matte/satin finish is not sanded, just sparyed and left to dry.

To clarify ( ) what big Joe said, their finish is probably a lacquer that has the flattener added before they buy it (if it's lacquer). For a satin lacquer you can add the flattener yourself, or buy lacquer that already has it in there. I don't do enough satin finish work to stock satin lacquer, so I add the flattener to my usual lacquer if I need it.

[joshro78]

so you don't have to do any kind of leveling? Are there never any finish imperfections with a matte finish? Can you tell I don't do finish work?

[sunburst]

so you don't have to do any kind of leveling? Are there never any finish imperfections with a matte finish? Can you tell I don't do finish work?

A well sprayed finish is pretty level. The imperfections show up because of the gloss. That's why a gloss finish requires level sanding and buffing. The less reflective surface of a satin finish hides minor imperfections and slightly unlevel places, so, when it's dry, you're done.

It's a lot less expensive and time consuming to do a satin finish because you don't have to fix as much stuff as you do for gloss. Little stuff won't show up anyway. You don't have to build as much film thickness because you don't have to sand off as much to keep it level and to pepare for buffing, and you get to skip the whole buffing process.
OTOH, you have to be able to spray pretty well. You can put lacquer on with a broom and buff it to a good gloss if there's enough film thickness.

If there's a big problem area in a satin finish, the easiest thing to do to fix it is sand it out, and then spray it one more time.

BTW, there are always finish imperfections. Anyone who has finished as many instruments as I, and some of the other members here have, can point them out on anybody's instrument.

[joshro78]

thanks for the great answer! I just assumed you had to do some kind of work on a matte finish. I guess I assumed that because the finish is so smooth (like on a Gibson F9). But like you said, I guess that's has to do with the quality spray job.

[J.Sloan]

There are various ways to make a "matte" finish, but, with lacquer, the way to do it is to add a flattener to the lacquer. The flattener refracts light so that the reflections are not sharp and shiney. The film thickness can be just as thin with a gloss lacquer, but it takes more skill and more work.



I don't know much about varnish and flatteners, but I'll soon be experimenting because I have to match a matte varnish finish in the near future. Guess I'll learn something in the process.

Hi John....just wondering if you ever found a flattener that worked well with oil varnish? I just finished a mandolin in a satin oil varnish. Even though it's satin, there's still a light gloss to it. I have since leveled sanded with 3200 micro mesh to take the gloss out and it has left very light scuff scratches..very light....more noticeable on the spruce than the maple. I was thinking of adding a flattener to the varnish and applying one more top coat. I'm thinking that this will also fill the scuff marks left by the micro mesh
and give the achieved matte finish. Thanks in advance!

[sunburst]

Silica powder has worked with every finish I've tried it in, including shellac, lacquer and oil varnish. I got some from a friend who works for a coating company, and it is the ingredient that they use for their flattening "pigments" that are sold to be added to lacquer. I found that whatever liquid vehicle the silica was mixed with to make lacquer flattening pigment was incompatible with oil varnish, but the powder alone worked fine.

[J.Sloan]

Thanks John for the advice....you are a constant help for all of us! I'll give it a try and practice on some scrap wood. It took less than an ounce of varnish to finish this A5, so it should take very little for a final coat of matte. I wiped the varnish on being as careful as possible about over lapping and witness lines, but as expected, I still have several faint lines. I should have used a foam brush to begin with. I'm gonna try and airbrush this final coat or two and hopefully get a smoother finish. Thanks again!

[Perry Babasin]

Tru-oil does not finish to anything I would call matte, particularly if there is a sealer under it already. It might not be as plastic gloss as lacquer but it's glossy (see avatar).

[sunburst]

I've been able to achieve anything from a "soft glow" to a high gloss with Tru-oil, but not a true "matte" finish. I bet it can be done by spraying TO with flattener added. Someone else may have to try that experiment, though.

[J.Sloan]

I used a quick dry oil varnish....satin finish....on the mandolin I just finished. Not true oil, although I did use true oil on my first F5. The true oil left a shine on the F5 which I was able to cut down very nicely to a soft glow/satin by adding a top coat of the Birchwood Casey Stock Sheen & Conditioner recommended by a builder here on the Cafe. It worked nicely. I always find that the local sporting good/gun store here in town keeps plenty of both in stock.

John, I was able to find pure 100% silica powder at the make up store that my wife manages. It's a very high end store called Sephora. They have it listed on their website. The products they sell are suppose to be some of the best in purety of ingredients for make up, so I'm hoping the silica powder will be the real deal.....according to description it should be. I'll found out tomorrow once I do a few test runs. Thanks again!

[sunburst]

Use a dust mask. It's a fine powder, becomes airborne easily, and you don't want it in your lungs!
If it sort of "beads up" and appears "water repellent" (varnish repellent?) in your varnish, just keep stirring and it should eventually mix in.

[J.Sloan]

Will do!! I prepped some boards early this morning, stained them, and put on first coat of "regular" varnish. I'll build up three or four coats....to mimic the mandolin finish...scuff sand....and then give the silica a try at various mixtures until I have what works. It's a longer process, but at least this way I can get an idea of the right amount of silica to achieve the matte finish that I'm after.....and also know how it will lay and look on the regular varnish.

by the way.....your A5 mandolin with the varnish satin finish that you posted here back in 2006 looks as good as I've ever seen one. It complements the Nugget F5 finish very well. Outstanding work.

[Perry Babasin]

I just ordered a bottle of the Stock Sheen & Conditioner. That sounds like just what I've been looking for.

[J.Sloan]

Perry...It works like a charm over the True Oil. I've always used a rag to apply it, but yesterday I put it on my finger just to get a feel of the consistency. I noticed that it had a very slight grit feel. This obviously helps in the satin process....but I think that adding just a little mineral oil or olive oil would help in keeping the viscosity just a tad smoother. You basically wipe the coat back off anyway ....immediately This way, you won't cut too much at once. Keep this in mind and shake the bottle really well to disperse the fine grain in the mix.

[Rick Turner]

Cardinal's satin nitro lacquer is absolutely wonderful. I tend to shoot it over dead flat sanded poly build coats for a closed pore look, but it is also nice as an open pore satin look. I strain it through a very fine filter...125 microns...and then shoot two coats to a kind of wet look, and the next day I have a beautifully even satin finish.