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Thread: Italian folk music on mando

  1. #51
    Registered User Plamen Ivanov's Avatar
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    Hello Mick,

    I have an accordion. It`s not Italian. It`s a German "Weltmeister", 40 basses. I inherited it from my grandparents and I brought it to a luthier (i`m not sure that luthier is the right word, when it`s about accordions) who tuned it for my girlfriend, who were about to play it for children in a kindergarden, where she was teaching music, but there was a piano, so she didn`t play it in fact. So, the accordion is in an excellent condition (with case). I was never thinking of selling it, but it just gathers dust at home. It`s better if someone can use it. If you are interested, I can send some pictures.

    Best,
    Plamen




  2. #52
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Well, Uncle Sam and the IRS have implied that I may not be buying an accordion in the near future....

    So back to my ongoing obsession:

    I am looking for the sheet music for 'Idillio Primaverile' by Giovanni Giovale (seems appropriate this week) as recorded on the "Italian String Virtuosi" and the "Traversata" disks.

    It isn't in Sheri's great compendium and I wonder if someone at the Cafe has the music and would be willing to share.

    Jim came through awhile back with "Aida" from the ISV disk for which I am greatful again each time I play it. I am a sucker for those Minor to Major to Minor key shifts.

    Thanks in advance for any help!

    Mick



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  3. #53
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Everyone I know who plays that just learned it by ear from the 78. But Terence Pender is planning on releasing a new book with the charts for that and some other juicy tunes: http://www.music.columbia.edu/~mando...nderWeb-6.html Scroll down a bit.
    .
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  4. #54
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Thanks, Paul. I know I need to buck up and improve my learn-by-ear process. That has always been a tough thing for me. I gave up TAB to force myself to learn to read music and now that I have, I am realizing that is another (albeit more enabling) crutch.

    I have Terrence Pender's earlier collection of Italian tunes. Maybe if I find a 78 rpm copy before the Spring is over and play it at 33 rpm it will be slow enough for me to learn by ear (transposing keys of course!)

    Mick
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  5. #55
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Giovale published a slim folio of some tunes, one of which was Costumi Siciliani. 'Idillio Primaverile' was not among those tunes and I have not seen the sheet music for it.

    Jim
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  6. #56
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    I couldn't find the earlier discussion viz Tony Flores' Ricordo di San Vito so I'll relaunch it here. I recently received a copy from Lisa Flores and it has been daily knocking me out. Thanks to those who passed along the recommendation.

    Now that I've outgrown my 'heroic architect' period, Caruso has replaced the "Emperor's Concerto" in advance of my daily engagement with the NYSubway or Houston traffic. In such context (or others less challenging) Tony's version of 'Mattinata' is sublime.

    A great companion piece is his version of 'Tra Veglia e Sonno' here confusingly (or purposefully!) mis-translated as 'between work and dreaming'--which is just the way that I spend the first hour or so of the day. So the soundtrack is well sync-ed.

    Lots of other rare and familiar melodies. Great great stuff.

    Mick



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  7. #57
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I have another home-produced CD by Tony dated 1985 called "The Happy Mandolin". It is subtitled "Canciónes Latinas" and has all Mexican tunes with Billy Packard on guitar and bass. I can't recall where I bought it but I am sure that Lisa or Paul would know where to get it, if still available.

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    I picked up a CD by Voyager, "Italian Mandolins" last weekend in a little store in Door County WI.
    There are no liner notes on the tunes or who played them
    but it sounded good to me. Orchestra arrangements of
    1. O Sole Mio
    2. Carnival of Venice
    3. Quando Quando
    4. Parlani D'Amore, Mariu
    5. The Woodpecker Song
    6. Violetta
    7. Il Bacio
    8. Cavalleria Rusticana
    9. Dicenticello Vuie
    10. Una Sera Napoli
    11. Neapolitan Dance
    12.Forget Domani
    13. Tarantella
    14. Capriccio Italienne
    15. La Mattinata
    Bill Foley

  9. #59
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    'Tra Veglia e Sonno' here confusingly (or purposefully!) mis-translated as 'between work and dreaming'
    It's not mistranslated at all. It's Sicilian dialect. In modern Italian, it would be "Fra lavoro e sonno' but the southern dialects are closer to Portuguese, which would read "Entre o trabalho e o sono."

    'Tra is an abbreviated version of entre, meaning between.

    Veglia is another abbreviation, from the root word for work, morphed a bit into travail in English. From middle Latin for really hard work (beyond labor).

    Sonno is from the Latin somnus - sleep - and shares the cognate with our somnabulant: sleepy.

    Glad you like the CD. There are only a few left (I have maybe 5) and we're working on sorting out copyright issues before we press more.
    .
    ph

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  10. #60
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Kind of a Bill Murray moment I guess. Veglia is related to the verb vegliare (which roughly means to be attentive or keep an eye over) close but not to be confused with vigilare (which roughly means to keep an eye out for.) Veglia simply means wake or awake. Kind of a simple meaning like Ockham's Razor suggests: The liminal state between awake and asleep. Pretty poetic. No reason to confound the profundity of a common expression. Sono 'tra veglia e sono. Seems like a case where a literal translation actually confuses (or at least dilutes) the meaning. "Between work and sleep"??....sounds pretty bland. (Though I feel that way again now at the end of the work day.) #But of course ringing in my ears are my italian teachers telling me that only idiots translate idioms...and here I go.

    Good to hear the disc may resume production-it's well recorded with v nice arrangements, clean clean playing. It is a must-have.

    Mick



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  11. #61
    Sheri Mignano Crawford Mandophile's Avatar
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    It's been a while...I seemed to have misplaced my brain! ha. but wnated to say that I have Gioviale's "Album di 8 Ballabili Scelti" with the "Serate Primaverile" (it's a waltz) I don't know if it's the same as "Idillo Primaverile." #I've made some transcriptions from the album. If this is the one, let me know. I can also scan it if someone needs it but the solfeggio chords may confuse if you don't know the Italian.
    Also, to join in about Tra Veglia--Someone mistyped it on Tony's CD and changed it from "Waking" to "Working". The first time Tony heard it was as a child--watching his parents dance to it when he was about 8, c. 1920. #Sheri
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  12. #62
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Hi Sheri:
    I have that same folio. Sorry "Idilio" is a completely different tune. Carlo plays is on Traversata and he learned it (probably) from the original or from the reissue on Rounder Italian String Virtuosi which is where I first heard it.

    Jim



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  13. #63
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    Sheri-Thanks to Tony (and Paul's) cd, and your transcription of Mattinata, I'm waking up (sto mi svegliando) to play out my Caruso moment this morning. Funny, I was just listening to by pal Glover Gil's soundtrack to Waking Life (set in HT Austin, dove la vita sono sempre 'tra veglia e sonno.) I enjoy the 'between work and sleep' malaprop though alot. Che cos'e 'tra lavoro e sonno? Pranzo, of course!

    I do have a couple transcriptions of Idilio if you'd like one to compare with Serate. I'm sure you have much better resources than I, but give a shout if you are at all interested.

    Mick
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  14. #64
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I just checked my files and Idilio Primaverile is on the FMI site for 3 mandolins + guitar (along with a few others and some mp3s as well. Thanks, Mike!!

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  15. #65
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    "Between work and sleep"??....sounds pretty bland. (Though I feel that way again now at the end of the work day.) But of course ringing in my ears are my italian teachers telling me that only idiots translate idioms...and here I go.
    I wasn't making my translation up with a dictionary in hand, I was set straight by a number of people from Sicily and from Naples. I believe them, and can't buy your translation. Sorry. The point of that title is it's the only time in the day to play music and dance.
    .
    ph

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  16. #66
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is some sort of idiom or else, Paul you misheard thru the accent (multiple times?).

    FWIW:
    Definition of Veglia

    Jim
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  17. #67
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ July 18 2007, 01:03)
    Quote Originally Posted by
    "Between work and sleep"??....sounds pretty bland. (Though I feel that way again now at the end of the work day.) #But of course ringing in my ears are my italian teachers telling me that only idiots translate idioms...and here I go.
    I wasn't making my translation up with a dictionary in hand, I was set straight by a number of people from Sicily and from Naples. I believe them, and can't buy your translation. Sorry. The point of that title is it's the only time in the day to play music and dance.
    I enjoy the "only time to play and dance" idea but your previous etymology was pretty tortured, however interesting.

    svegliarsi is a reflective verb meaning to wake oneself up. It is quite an unnecessary stretch to turn this into "work" or such. Vegliare shares the same root, as does veglia. # Pretty straightforward meaning. If you are familiar with Italian, there are tons of idiomatic expressions around this concept-- awaken(ing).

    (The Latin root you were looking for to tie travail to this actually relates to another word and concept altogether-the old Italian travaglio-and in Spanish trabajo-rather than to vegliare-which has it own separate sourcing. The word travaglio is actually related to an early idea of torture-hence my initial pun-and while waking up is often torturous for me, the word veglia remains completely unrelated.

    ....Except when one thinks of an oral tradition (the old version of CD liner notes, maybe?.)#It is fascinating to consider 'tra veglia morphing back and forth from travaglio.

    One doesn't need a dictionary to work through this, (mi sveglio ogni giorni) just a knowledge of Italian and perhaps experience living and working (and listening and talking) there.

    FWIW, I'm with Sheri on this one -as well as my buddy Gus Garelick, whose violin take on Tra Veglia is flat out dangerous to listen to while driving.

    No apologies necessary, hombre. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can believe what you want to believe from whatever source you like, Sicilian or otherwise. (However, we do have a 90 y.o. Sicilian neighbor across from our house in Liguria and he does have his own way with words....) It is a great tune no matter how the translation 'evolves.' Besides, it's your recording, and notes, I suppose. #There, you can call all the shots you want.

    Mick



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  18. #68
    Café habitué Paul Hostetter's Avatar
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    You guys insist on wanting to rely on Italian as the source of the title, but the title is not in Italian. It's in dialect. No one mistyped anything in those notes. The title came directly off the original sheet music:



    And the translation came from Tony and a committee. I went around the block about the translation for years too. The torture was listening to Tony and his wife Lori and a woman from Naples hash out what it really meant. Lori (who's also from Sicily) dug in for the 'waking,' but the woman from Naples corroborated Tony's take on the 'working' translation. I was rooting for Lori, I thought it was less poetic, but hey, they're from there.

    .
    ph

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  19. #69
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    The reason many folks want to rely on Italian for understanding this title is because it is a very common expression in Italy. It is not solely used in Sicilia, Napoli or anywhere else. True, regional dialects exist all throughout the country but over there meaning is not confused about this expression. No committees needed. And while dictionaries hold no water here, it is probably in any size Langensheidt you pick up.

    This whole conversation was getting kind of weird for me (and in my line of work there are a LOT of weird conversations.) I contacted a friend of mine, Grazia Badino, in Firenze who I've taught with a number of times at the Uni there. She directed me to a colleague of hers (in the Psychology dept.) who does work in hypnosis. Here is a link to a course syllabus of his:

    http://www.psico.unifi.it/upload....106.pdf

    What is very interesting is that his studies differentiate between 'tra veglia e sonno and 'tra sonno e veglia. Both are pretty magical times. (As is any time before or after work-which is something I would do well to daily keep in mind.) He may be confusing the meaning, too, but, like Quasimodo, I've got a hunch.

    Thanks for the additional dots for the song. The 'tra veglia/travaglio thing has had me whistling all week. I've been listening to this 16 part (hours!) podcast on the history of English. This kind of word morphing-meaning morphing is really interesting to me. Tony Flores must have been an amazing guy. Easily understandable to want to go with what he wanted.

    Doug (Sahm) and Augie used to do a take on Bob Wills: "Roads of Sand and Stone." Not as deep as this one, but I'm still cleaning my ears over it.

    Ugh. The time between sonno e lavoro is just about up.....

    Mick



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  20. #70
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Another vote from Roma (my friend and fellow mandolinist Gino di Rosa):
    Quote Originally Posted by
    The "Tra veglia e sonno" (or "Dormiveglia") means in english "In a doze" (or "Half asleep", "Drowsiness").
    Jim
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    "The title came directly off the original sheet music:"

    Is there a 2nd mandolin part for this?
    thanks
    Bill Foley

  22. #72
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I most likely have that part also, if Paul doesn't. I just have to look thru my piles of sheet music.

    Jim
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    That would be great, if posted.
    I am assuming just 1st and 2nd and guitar exist. ??
    thanks!
    Bill Foley

  24. #74
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (a12 @ July 20 2007, 11:59)
    Is there a 2nd mandolin part for this?
    I posted a pdf with all three parts to this tune at my Old Tunes site. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for that one. There are a few other interesting Italian tunes as well as other stuff from the same period.

    Jim
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jim, for posting this. I'm excited about learning the second mandolin part. Con sentimento for sure.

    Mick
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