Octave mandola and octave mandolin

[halfling356]

I have been reading and some sights have said that an octave mandola and octave mandolin are the same instrument, just labled differantly. Is this true?

[Unseen122]

For the most part yes. Octave Mandolin is the American way to say it. Octave Mandola is the European way. Some times it will just be called a Mandola. A Tenor Mandola is what we Americans call a Mandola. A dead give away is the Scale Length, an Octave will be 20+", a Mandola will be about 17" plus or minus one or two.

[catmandu2]

How about neck widths? My mandola has a very narrow, mandolin-like width. I know a lot of OMs and zouks are wider.

[Unseen122]

The neck gets wider as the scale gets longer. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Gerry Cassidy]

An octave mandola is more commonly called a Mandocello and is usually larger, and tuned a fifth below an Octave Mandolin.

[Bob DeVellis]

I'm not sure that "more commonly" is universally true but certainly people do refer to a mandocello (tuned an octave below mandola) as an octave mandola. I think the take-home message is that it's really important to specify scale length and customary tuning when talking about these big-boys in order to avoid confusion. Now, I think I'll go play my baritone mandolinetto.

[jmcgann]

One way to avoid confusion

What's all this about whatd'ya call that thing?

Great debate continues to rage over what to call each instrument. Perhaps "the fighting is so fierce because the stakes are so small" In the UK and Europe, the octave mandolin is often called an octave mandola, which I find quite confusing and musically incorrect. I look at it like this:

Mandolin- GDAE is standard, it can be tuned a number of other ways including GDAD, GDGD, AEAE etc.

Mandola- CGDA

Octave Mandolin- same as mandolin GDAE an octave lower. Again, many variants on the tuning.

Mandocello- same as Mandola an octave lower, long scale.

Bouzouki- longer scaled version of octave mandolin, but less frequently tuned like one- usually a "modal tuning" like ADAD. Not be be confused with Greek Bouzouki, which is DAD (older tuning) or CFAD, whole step below the top 4 strings of the guitar (contemporary tuning).

Cittern- as above (though may be short scaled) with 5 courses (sets) of strings. I recently played one tuned GDAEB with the extra high string, but most seem to be tuned with an extra low string pitched at D or C. Again, the tuning can vary wildly depending on the player's preference. Stefan Sobell appropriated this name from an olde English stringed instrument also called the cittern.

To me, "Octave Mandola" is wrong and defies logic, because it is not a mandola tuning, it is not an octave below the mandola tuning, and has nothing to do with a modern mandola. The instrument tuned an octave below the mandolin is, logically, an octave mandolin. The fact that hundreds (or thousands) follow a belief doesn't necessarily make it right.

I know it sounds like "American arrogance" and it is not my intention to offend our European brothers and sisters- but it has nothing to do with nationality. To me, "mandola" means it is tuned like a mandola with a C in the bass. "Octave mandola" would simply be a mandocello.

"Octave mandolin" pretty much tells you what the instrument IS.

[Bob DeVellis]

What John says, of course, makes complete sense. But I think the alternative system makes an odd kind of sense, too (although I prefer John's nomenclature). Think of a mandola as a low-pitched member of the mandolin family, generically. Then, think of there being two primary types of mandola. The tenor mandola is a tenor-pitched "big mandolin" and the octave mandola is an octave-pitched "big mandolin." In other words, "mandola" refers to its status as a "big mandolin" while "octave" denotes its pitch relative to the point of reference for the whole mandolin family, namely, the mandolin, and differntiates it from other mandolas (i.e., other big mandolins). Confusing, absolutely. This sytem also leaves out other "big mandolins" in the use of "mandola." But there is a certain imperfect internal logic to it, although it's not the usage I prefer. I guess, we really don't need the term "mandola" at all because we could call the two instruments "tenor mandolin" and "octave mandolin." But if I'm not mistaken, there were actually mandolas before there were mandolins. Mandola is Italian (in a certain dialect, in others it's "mandorla") for almond. When our beloved little brother came along it was a little almond, mandolino. So, I guess we should really be calling the mandolin a soprano mandola.

I hope I haven't done too much injustice to musical history here. Others, please correct me as needed.

[Gerry Cassidy]

Bob,

I must admit I don't have much of the actual histories of these families of instruments in my lil' ol' noggin, so I can't comment in that regard, but the way I keep it all organized, once again, in my lil' ol' noggin is pretty simple and has worked for me:

Violin - Mandolin

Viola - Mandola

Cello - Mandocello

Bass - Mandobass

Note: The Octave Mandolin doesn't fit into this architecture, and somewhere along the road I had read it was because of this our British Isle Brethren, out of simplicity, called it a Mandola for lack of better term.

This may make no sense to some, but has worked for me over the years.

[Tennessee Jed]

You do have to be careful if you are on a site that doesn't specialize in mandolins and other instruments in the mandolin family. The may call an instrument one thing but when I read more about the item I become suspicious. I've seen items on e-bay call "octave mandolin / bouzouki / mandola". I've seen the exact same brand and model instrument called different things on different websites.

[otterly2k]

always good to ask the scale, just so you know what you're dealing with...

[Steph]

Check out the thread on the Sobell on "the auction site". Dan posted - and my experience is the same, is that Sobell seems to refer to the <20" scale versions he makes as "octave mandolas" with an lengthed mandola scale. The longer scales as octave mandolins and of course on from there to zouks.

[WildWest]

An octave mandola is more commonly called a Mandocello and is usually larger, and tuned a fifth below an Octave Mandolin.

There are so many differences of opinion as to the Mandolin Family, however one way that might help is the following.

Mandolin- GDAE is standard, it can be tuned a number of other ways including GDAD, GDGD, AEAE etc. Corresponds to the violin. Tuned like a violin.

Mandola- CGDA Corresponds to the viola. Tuned like a viola.

Octave Mandolin- same as mandolin GDAE an octave lower. Again, many variants on the tuning. No modern bowed counterpart.

Mandocello- same as Mandola an octave lower, long scale. Corresponds to the 'cello. Tuned like a 'cello.

Bouzouki- longer scaled version of octave mandolin, but less frequently tuned like one, due to the long scale length making GDAE tuning unwieldy (without a capo)- usually a "modal tuning" like ADAD. Not be be confused with Greek Bouzouki, which is DAD (older tuning) or CFAD, whole step below the top 4 strings of the guitar (contemporary tuning).

Cittern- as above (though may be short scaled) with 5 courses (sets) of strings. I recently played one tuned GDAEB with the extra high string, but most seem to be tuned with an extra low string pitched at D or C. Again, the tuning can vary wildly depending on the player's preference. Stefan Sobell appropriated this name from an olde English stringed instrument also called the cittern.

To me, just my opinion: the name "Octave Mandola" defies logic, because it is not a mandola (viola) tuning, nor is it an octave below the mandola tuning (which would be mandocello), and has nothing to do with a mandola-as-tuned-like-a-viola as you'll find in the US marketplace.

The instrument tuned an octave below the mandolin is, to me, most logically an octave mandolin.

"Alto mandola" and "Tenor mandola" mean different things to different people in various countries.

A viola isn't an octave below a violin. In the USA, mandolas are tuned like violas- CGDA.

I believe the naming conventions could be simplified, but the horse is out of the barn.

[mrmando]

Trouble is, the mandola was developed first. The mandolin is a variant of the mandola, not the other way around.

When the Europeans say "mandola" they mean the GDAE instrument. The term "octave mandola," is redundant and exists mostly to distinguish the GDAE instrument from the CGDA instrument.

[zoukboy]

Bouzouki- longer scaled version of octave mandolin, but less frequently tuned like one, due to the long scale length making GDAE tuning unwieldy (without a capo)- usually a "modal tuning" like ADAD.

If you are talking about the Irish bouzouki it actually has nothing to do with the octave mandolin, being a development of the Greek bouzouki after it was introduced to Irish folk and traditional music in the late 1960s. By far the most common tuning is GDAD (ADAD is fairly rare).

[Bertram Henze]

If anybody asks what instrument I play, my answer depends on where I am:
In the US: octave mandolin
In the UK: octave mandola
In Germany: Mandola
In a fit of boredom: Quare Bungle Rye

If I had a mandola in the US, I would call it a tenor mandola in the UK and an alto mandolin (Altmandoline) in Germany.
If I had a mandocello, I'd call it a mandocello everywhere.

Then there's those long-neck contraptions whose name, tuning and number of strings are completely arbitrary: Bouzouki, Cittern, Blarge, 8string, 10string, GDAE, CGDAE, CGDAD, GDAEB, GDAD, GDGD, ADAD, DDDD ....
The only way out of this would be a length/tuning code, like "CGDAE25", but you know how it is with good ideas...

[magic-marmelade]

what a crazy debate on how to call these instruments...

Somehow i like the fact that the names are not really fixed and depend on the place,
i like this slight mystery around the mandolin family
i actually would be sad of someone would come and be so clever to set the perfect names to all of them that everybody agree with...
but even in that case, sooner or later, there would for sure be a guy building a new kind of cross-gender that wouldn't fit in the system... for exemple the norvegian "5 chorus Låtmandola" with a screw system of individual capos

To people i meet that i know barely recognize that what i play has a funny shape for a guitar i tend to say it is the big sister of mandolin... usually they get happy on with that answer!
So i could propose this, Mandolin, and all bigger is big sister...
but well i see the end of my beautiful theory that people would sooner or later have to say the big 5 courses sister in C of the mandolin...

[Dr H]

[Removed duplicate post]

[Dr H]

TOctave Mandolin- same as mandolin GDAE an octave lower. Again, many variants on the tuning. No modern bowed counterpart.

Actually there is a modern bowed counterpart, but it hasn't caught on in any big way. It's called the "tenor violin," and it's tuned like the violin, one octave lower.

Among the reasons it hasn't caught on is that it's an awkward size, and neither its makers nor its players can seem to agree on whether it should be played on the shoulder (like violin and viola), on the knees (like viol da gamba), or pegged to the floor (like a cello).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_violin_family


The core mandolin family parallels the core violin family:

Violin --------------- Mandolin --------------- G3 D4 A4 E5
Viola --------------- Mandola ---------------- C3 G3 D4 A4
(Tenor Violin) ------- (Octave Mandolin) ------ G2 D3 A3 E4
Cello --------------- Mandocello ------------- C2 G2 D3 A3
Bass --------------- Mandobass ------------- E1 A1 D2 G2

So by my reckoning the "octave mandolin" really ought to be called the "tenor mandolin," since that's the pitch range it functions in, relative to other members of the instrument's family.

Of course the fussy (like members of the Catgut Acoustical Society) would insist that viola and mandola be called "alto violin" and "alto mandolin", etc. But we don't need to be that fussy, do we?

[mrmando]

Actually there is a modern bowed counterpart, but it hasn't caught on in any big way. It's called the "tenor violin," and it's tuned like the violin, one octave lower.

Among the reasons it hasn't caught on is that it's an awkward size, and neither its makers nor its players can seem to agree on whether it should be played on the shoulder (like violin and viola), on the knees (like viol da gamba), or pegged to the floor (like a cello).

One can also take a standard violin and put really heavy strings on it for octave tuning. Reportedly works best when the violin is somewhat overbuilt, which a lot of student models are. Darol Anger is among the players who've done this successfully.

The core mandolin family parallels the core violin family:

Violin --------------- Mandolin --------------- G3 D4 A4 E5
Viola --------------- Mandola ---------------- C3 G3 D4 A4
(Tenor Violin) ------- (Octave Mandolin) ------ G2 D3 A3 E4
Cello --------------- Mandocello ------------- C2 G2 D3 A3
Bass --------------- Mandobass ------------- E1 A1 D2 G2

The problem with this is that the tenor violin, as you admit, isn't part of the "core violin family." It's a Hutchins octet instrument that hasn't caught on in the mainstream violin world, so your argument here is mostly self-defeating.

So by my reckoning the "octave mandolin" really ought to be called the "tenor mandolin," since that's the pitch range it functions in, relative to other members of the instrument's family.

"Octave" is just as descriptive of its pitch range as "tenor," methinks. And the octave mandolin is actually the oldest instrument in the mandolin family, not some 20th-century concoction by a nutty professor. So there is no valid point of comparison to the tenor violin other than that they happen to have the same tuning.

Of course the fussy (like members of the Catgut Acoustical Society) would insist that viola and mandola be called "alto violin" and "alto mandolin", etc. But we don't need to be that fussy, do we?

Well, I'm not interested in perpetuating, any further than necessary, the myth that the mandolin family of instruments are derived from the violin family. They're not. They have some things in common, but each family of instruments has its own line of development.

We owe the confusion over the term "mandola" in large part to the Gibson Company, which decided somewhat arbitrarily that a mandolin orchestra should have instruments with the same tunings as a string orchestra. This led to the promotion of the CGDA mandola as the "proper" instrument for playing tenor lines in such an orchestra. Gibson propaganda actually derided octave mandolins as inferior hybrid instruments. The Gibson model was more or less successful in the States but not so much in the rest of the world. And that's why "mandola" means something different in the United States than it does elsewhere.

[Bernie Daniel]

Actually there is a modern bowed counterpart, but it hasn't caught on in any big way. It's called the "tenor violin," and it's tuned like the violin, one octave lower.

Among the reasons it hasn't caught on is that it's an awkward size, and neither its makers nor its players can seem to agree on whether it should be played on the shoulder (like violin and viola), on the knees (like viol da gamba), or pegged to the floor (like a cello).

Just my opinion and that does not count for much but I wish the tenor violin HAD or WOULD "catch on" they sound just wonderful!

[Mandobart]

I have a "tenor violin"; its a regular fiddle with octave strings. Tuned like a normal fiddle, one octave lower. It has a nice low, rich sound, but as you might expect not as full as it would have with a 18 - 20" scale. Of course, I've played a 20" viola and it was quite a stretch! Here's a thread on Fiddle Hangout where I discuss some problems I had with the super sensitive octave strings. I need to post a video of it some time, up close (or amplified) it's a cello sound out of a violin.

[bratsche]

Actually there is a modern bowed counterpart, but it hasn't caught on in any big way. It's called the "tenor violin," and it's tuned like the violin, one octave lower.

Among the reasons it hasn't caught on is that it's an awkward size, and neither its makers nor its players can seem to agree on whether it should be played on the shoulder (like violin and viola), on the knees (like viol da gamba), or pegged to the floor (like a cello).

In other circles, the name "baritone violin" is given to a regular full-sized violin fitted with heavier strings to make it play an octave lower. That is tricky, and the key seems to be that the worse, most harsh sounding violins make the best octave violins. I've seen one, but was unimpressed with its lower register (maybe the violin used was too good?) I thought it would logically work better to string a bigger-bodied viola in low GDAE tuning. So I currently have my backup viola set up that way, just for the fun of it.

bratsche

[bratsche]

Hey Mandobart, I was typing that while you were posting.

How do you like your octave/tenor/baritone fiddle? I haven't tried the special octave strings (viola length), but was just making do with some odd ones I had lying around. The worst part for me is getting the bow hairs to give sufficient traction on the low strings (I use an old heavy "beater" bow for best results so far!)

bratsche

[RBMB]

My take on this is that when the US became independent all _ _ _ _ broke loose and instrument naming became out of control. If we had a King we would have official names and less confusing posts. This is not unlike the confusion experienced when Cambridge was invited to play in the first Rose Bowl. Until the UN finally forms a commission on the uniform naming of instruments perhaps these instruments should be referred to as "the instruments that can not be named." (Apologies to Harry Potter fans.)