Loar Picture of the Day

[Michael Gowell]

Yeah, I've read a reference to LL playing an F-2 at least before (and maybe during?) the time he worked for Gibson in Kalamazoo. #Though whether that info was based on this photo or from another source I don't know. #Wish I could remember where I read that...

Interesting that he played a relatively plain F-2 when he so clearly dressed at the height of elegance for concert work - guess it was a good 'un...

Am I remembering correctly that he was a paid endorser for Gibson prior to his employment at the factory? #Anyone know
when that arrangement began? #We tend to concentrate on his quality control role at the factory and don't talk about how he was one of that era's leading performers...

[danb]

I've seen them "married" like Handsome Mark says. I wish I could see the mandola/mandolin tuners, with F holes, I bet they are made up.....
I also think the mandolin is an F2. I think that binidng on the back is just a reflection.
It has an F2 peghead, for sure.

Well I'm 99% sure they are 5-on-a-plate on the f-holed 10-string, simply because they look exactly like the plate style I had on my vega, and clearly those were around at least as early as 1917 when that vega was made.

You guys are right, it probably is reflection, not binding, and an F2.

[Ken Waltham]

I have never seen the mando/viola, so I would certainly hope it has factory made, 5 on a plate tuners.
But, my experience with Gibson, is that it may in fact be a marriage.
As you know, they were privately owned, and wasted nothing.
The 5 on a plate you posted were really nice, and I have never seen them before. The ones I've seen, mostly on banjo mandos and other oddities were marriages from 2 sets of tuners. They were also cheaper instruments.
BTW, all the times I've seen that photo of Lloyd... I've never noticed that mandola had 10 strings!
And.... you know who has Loar's F2 now..... the experimental Virzi one....

[Darryl Wolfe]

The mando-viola has factory made gold wriggle end 1922/ealy 23 style tuners. The instrument however has hex bushings ala 30's.

I agree with Mark, the upper end tuner spacing is larger on the 10-string oval hole which to me indicates a rigged up set of tuners. I'd almost bet it's a set of 8 string mando tuners with another pair of individuals simply cut off and added on the end. If you ground off the end of the 4 post set and added another matching individual, it would look reasonable

[Philip Halcomb]

Hey off the topic a little, but are there any pictures of David Grisman's crusher? I always wanted to see close-ups of that mandolin. Thanks...

[ShaneJ]

Cool, Darryl! How 'bout a shot of the rest of it? Wood body, or metal?

[mandopete]

Man,you gotta lower that action!

[ShaneJ]

Man,you gotta lower that action!

Yeah, and finish carving the back of the neck too!

Seriously, Darryl, I was assuming mandolin content and didn't even count tuning machines and strings. I have had the bug for a resonator mandolin lately. Ever made one of those?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a real beauty that our own Dan Beimborn helped unearth

81273

[mandopete]

Yikes!

That's a steal at a mere $35K.

[levin4now]

Looking back a couple of pages to those pictures of Lloyd Loar holding that '05 3 pointer makes me wonder - are all the Gibson builders today dressed in the same manner? Or has Gibson relaxed its dress code policy? Maybe Lloyd's pics were taken on "Casual Friday".

[mandophil(e)]

There have been numerous discussions about the total number of signed Loars out there, but I'm curious about how many pre-war Ferns are known to exist. I did a rough count of those listed in the Archive, and came to about 90 some odd, making them quite a bit rarer than Loars. It also seems as though there are distinct types--those with arrow-end tuners vs. round end, those with "the Gibson" vs just "Gibson", etc. Darryl, Dan, Tom, or anybody else care to weigh in on this?

Also, is it thought that there are probably as many undiscovered Ferns as unknown Loars? It seems as though there are 2-4 new Loars a year that are coming to light. Is that the same frequency for new Ferns?

[Darryl Wolfe]

From the Journal

134 Post Loar instruments (verified)
118 Mandolins, F
2 Mandolas, H
1 Mando-cellos, K
14 Guitars, L (fairly recent category, hundreds were made)

I don't have extrapolation calcs set up for post Loar period, but just a quick figure would add about 50% to the 118 mandolin figure above. #Yes Ferns are actually more rare than Loars.

[f5loar]

You have the postLoar flowerpots and fleur-de-lis in that total so back those out and you do have far less Ferns made making them far more rarer than a signed Loar at only half the price. Ferns should fall into two categories:
1925 to 1931 and 1932 to 1936. Flowerpots start back in 1937 and fleur-de-lis in 1941 to 1943. When I was torn between owning a Loar or a Fern Randy Wood told me "Nobody ever complained about the sound Bobby Osborne got from his Fern" There are quite a few fantastic sounding Ferns out there. About 20 have been added to the verfied listing in the past 4 years or about 5 per year. Another 50 to be found! Good Luck!

[kudzugypsy]

hey dan, whats the story on unearthing the '25 L-5?

- it was on hold last week - i see its back for sale.

[mandophil(e)]

Tom, my understanding is that top flight early Ferns were usually tracking at better than half the price of a Loar. Has that changed?

[danb]

re: the '25.. I was contacted via the archives by the owners. They initially were inquiring about value, had some family issues a few months later that prompted them to sell, so I talked around for them, picked out the best images, had various archive friends pore over it, and we came up with a value..

I helped them to make a deal with Stan W at Elderly. Nice guy, very easy to work with, 100% trust at all times as you can imagine. Not a heck of a lot to tell really!

I do get a fair number of interesting emails from the archives of course, and I always try to do well to hook owners up with fair prices etc if they want to sell. Hmm, it has been a couple weeks now since a Loar has turned up, hasn't it?

[f5loar]

As with most anything of collector value condition is an important part of price so you have a range to consider for Loars and Ferns. I'd say today's range for a Loar runs $125,000 to $185,000 and an early Fern is running $72,000 to $88,000 so close to being half price. These are prices for complete originals not refinished or refurbished, mucked with, toyed with or butchered up conditions. They can be as much as half those prices. I have no doubt a pristine minty condition newly found July 9th reverse binding Loar that could blow your socks off with one stroke of a B chord and could loosen the head of a calf skin 30's Mastertone from it's power thrust could fetch $200,000 easily. What say you Darryl and Dan?

[danb]

Yep, it's already happened. Unoffically there are at least 2 Loars that have sold over $175k

What appears to be happening now in the market from my armchair.. the prices have crept up a bit again, stabilizing for a while around $120k for a flowerpot, $130 for a fern or sidebound, and spiking up to 80% more again for super-fine examples. Ferns have also been climbing steadily, a good one will fetch in the neighborhood of $90k these days.

I think what happened to the market of old gibsons recently is simply explained by the internet. More people are aware of them, which didn't really increase demand but increased the ability of buyers to find them and compete. Ebay prices for "Standard" vintage are getting relatively stable, with the caveat that pristine examples are being fought over by collectors for very high prices (the $6600 super-clean A2z recently on eBay as an example).

To stick a finger in the air, I'd guess we're around this mark on average:

Flowerpot Loar: $120k
Sidebound or Fern Loar: $135-150k
Unusually incredible/clean Loar: $175-?
Ferns '25-30: $80-95k

F4 1912-1918 super-clean: $5500-6000
F4 truss rod: $7500-8500

[Darryl Wolfe]

Agree

Same thing has happened lately for the '30's Martin D's, it's a sellers market on them, as in name your price for the especially good ones

[mandophil(e)]

I think there is a difference in valuation in the marketplace between early Ferns with arrow-end tuners and later models. Gruhn and Elderly both have very clean later Ferns that haven't moved at $80k.

[f5loar]

$120K for a flowerpot '23 is low but not for a '24 run of the mill with Virzi in or out. A '23 has always brought more than a '24 and a '22 has brought more than a '23.
Darryl is right about D prewar Martins. There was a well worn almost all original '38 D28 on ebay a few weeks back that fetched over $47,000 blew me away. No doubt 2006 will see Loars reach the $200 grand mark.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Absolutely mandophil(e) #Those early ones are in the price range mentioned above whereas the later are definitely not.
We sometimes tend to lump all post Loar F5's together as "Ferns", but there are "Ferns", "late Ferns" and "30's" F5's, each having a price range/structure that gets commensurately lower in value

[mandophil(e)]

Darryl:

Is the difference between "early" and "late" Fern the tuners/tailpiece set-up, or is it the body dimensions? Or both? I've heard about Ferns with early FON's that have later style equipment, but are still considered early. What is your take on the differences?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Also,in my mind at least, there is an uncanny similarity between the value and desirabilitiy of those four "classes" of pre-war F5's and the desirability and used market price of:

a 2004 Master Model---------Loar
a 2004 "Fern"---------------Early Fern
a 1995 F5L------------------Late Fern
a 1982 F5L------------------30's F5

The percentage $ difference and desirability align just about perfectly.