Mandolin Snobbery

[Richard Polf]

I've decided to take "Lee957" up on his suggestion to start a thread to explore this topic. Here is my quote from the "Are there any <1K F styles worth buying" thread.

"...I find mandolin players, or at least the ones who participate on this board, the most obsessive and snobbish musicians I have ever come across. This is from a perspective of a life spent in music (B.A.; M.A. in music, commuity college professor, professional performer in classicial, jazz and folk and "old time" styles as a bassoonist, saxophonist, pianist, guitar and, now, soon, I hope, mandolin.) I have never experienced to such a degree this "My instrument is the best and only instrument and by the way if you didn't pay $3K or more for it you just playing a POS" attitude. In comparison, there seems little demand on this board for discussion(s) of musicianship (interpretation, tone production, etc.). I know that it's a matter of priorities, but honestly, in the world I live in most people will never be able to afford a 3K+ mandolin. I think I have pretty darn good ears and I know there are instruments out there for less than 1K that sound and play great. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but, I'm geniunely interested (from a musical/sociological standpoint) in other thoughts as to why this seems, at least to me, to be the case."

In retrospect my words seem a little strong but they ought to get things rolling. #

[midmando]

I think it's merely the difference between a newcomer to anything and an advance amateur, or even pro. #I've had friends who were hardcore bicyclists - not one would ride a Huffy. #For me, who just rides around the block with the kids, I do not understand/appreciate/care what makes a $5000 bike better than a $100 bike. #The Huffy suits me just fine.

When it comes to mandolins, if you ask a hardcore player his opinion, he/she's going to give it to you, in spades. #Scott himself, although he played the common touch in the thread you mentioned, has before stated his belief that "not everybody needs a Nugget." #But note the mandolins he chooses for himself. #He understands that to a beginner, an MK is great, more than adequate, and that a new player cannot understand or appreciate what makes a better mandolin, better. #But that doesn't mean he doesn't recognize the difference.

Of the ones that constantly recommend a higher priced mando, I think they fall into two basic categories - 1. #Advanced players who have forgotten what it was like to be a beginner. #2. #Advanced players who sincerely believe that a better instrument will make you a better player, faster, which will make you love the music more and stick with it longer. # I think most of the people on this board who get nailed as mando snobs (Dale, Crowder, Scotti, et al) fall for the most part into the second category.

There are others, like you, that have found something to suit you in the under $1000 price range. Wonderful for you! But that doesn't make someone who recommends something different a snob. When opinions are asked, you're going to get them. The thread you alluded to wasn't "What's the best mando for under $1000." I don't like it either when those threads get hijacked. But this one, I think, was "Is there a worthwhile F stlye for under $1000." Given that question, Crowder's response, and others, were not at all inappropriate.

My two mandolins are a Mid-Mo M1 and a Fender. #I was perfectly happy with them till I made the mistake of playing a couple mandolins I couldn't afford... #

my 2 cents

[Crowder]

What you have here is a collection of enthusiasts who take the hobby of picking the mandolin more seriously than they probably take anything else that you might compare it to. If you hunt ducks, you want to have the best shotgun/camo/decoys/blind/dog you can afford, because it makes it more enjoyable. Same here. Many a man who was satisfied with his instrument one day got blown away by something else the very next day, and suddenly what he had just didn't seem adequate. If a person really wants to stay happy with an intermediate quality instrument, my suggestion would be for that person to be sure to never touch any other mandolins. It can only lead to heartbreak.

Now, I do sense some snobbery in a certain type. One who simply must have a $450 case for a mandolin that rarely leaves the house would be an example. People who have to have lots of expensive accesories that don't accomplish anything. That's just wasting money IMHO. Or someone who orders multiple and more or less identical instruments from the same builder. That seems pretty silly to me now, but if I had more money I'm not sure I wouldn't fall into the same trap.

[BigJoe]

I have seen plenty of opinionated individuals...much like me...on this forum, but no real snobs. We each have a different level of experience and expectation from our instruments. When I first began playing mandolin many years ago in Minnesota I wanted a better mandolin, but could not find one. Now I have been blessed to be in the midst of the finest mandolins on the planet for a good number of years. I have had the opportunity to see and play what few have the opportunity to play. I have far more developed preferences and opinions. They are not baseless, but they are still mine. I don't think that makes me a snob. I still remember the first 'cheapie' mandolin I owned and how excited I was. It did not take long to realize it was not the one for me and I upgraded. That has happened a few times over the years. To me the mandolins I have are more important than a big screen TV or bass boat or? That is where I put my money. Not everyone has the same priority as I do. That does not make either of us snobs, just different from one another.

It does not matter what an instrument costs if you are happy with it. Bobby Osborne still has a mandolin that he paid $250 for. He has had it for many years. Quite a nice instrument. I love its tone and playability. Of course, it is one of those Lloyd Loar instruments, but it was an under one thousand dollar instrument . I have often said, play what you love and love what you play. Life is too short to worry about much else!

[Scott Tichenor]

In retrospect my words seem a little strong but they ought to get things rolling. #

Somehow categorizing everyone out here into one big paradigm is exactly the kind of thing I dislike. I'd suggest the thing I'd like to see rolling is your tail off this board. With your advanced intelligence and musical experience, why on earth are you out here hanging out with mandolin players?

Curious. Get a life man!

[Scott Tichenor]

P.S. you're a troller

[Keith Newell]

Ack! I must have gone wrong somewhere. After starting in school with base drum then progressing to trumpet, bartone, violin, viola, and double F french horn then advancing to fun stuff like 5 string banjo then tenor bango, Bouzoukie, mandolin then mandola I have failed to develope the arrogance (or even good spelling techniques) of some of our other posters! Where did I go wrong?! As an 1st chair 1st French horn in college I just wanted the Conn 8D french horn, it was silver plated and the most coveted, Or the Gibson Mastertone 5 string because Earl played it, somehow I just wanted them because it was my choice , my reward for the hours and hours of practice and love for the instrument :/
I guess if you loved Chevrolets you shouldnt want the 69 Chevelle SS because then your a snob? but better to love and want the 86 Chevette.. ( no disrespect to any that own or love them).
Sorry, I got off track... This is the best bunch of people on any web-site on the net. More information, kudos, heart rending stories, triumphs, failiers, friendships, lost friendships remade and general good will is shared here than any other place ( let me tell you I cruise alot of sites).
Thanks Scott for the chance for so much fun and a place for those with quick judgements, narrow minds and big egos to be heard along with the rest of us. (coarse I may fit in one of those time to time
Keith Newell

[John Jesseph]

I don't know why this seems to you to be the case.

You must not scan any of the violin sites!

[Richard Polf]

"Somehow categorizing everyone out here into one big paradigm is exactly the kind of thing I dislike. I'd suggest the thing I'd like to see rolling is your tail off this board. With your advanced intelligence and musical experience, why on earth are you out here hanging out with mandolin players?

Curious. Get a life man!"

"P.S. you're a troller"

Wow! I obviously really misjudged the effect of my words. As I type this I'm actually shaking with shock and embarrassment at my stupidity. Believe it or not I only meant to have a discussion. It was stupid and ill-advised. I sincerely apoligize to all on the Mandolin Cafe whom I have offended. It's no excuse, but I just got carried away. I truly meant no offense, most of all to you Mr. Tichenor, whom I admire very much. I have enjoyed this wonderful site for 3+ years and have learned so much from it. For that I am truly grateful. You are the last person I would want to offend. I don't know what a "troller" is, but I can guess that it's low form of life. I hope that's not the case with me. I made a stupid mistake that I deeply regret. It's no excuse, but I've been unemployed for the past 7 mos. with too much time on my hands. I'm not offering it as an excuse, but as I sit here typing this I'm just trying to figure out how I messed up so badly. Please, all on this board, accept my sincere apology.

Richard

[Richard Polf]

Scott Tichenor,

I didn't know how to contact you directly, so...

If you could just leave this thread up long enough for others to read my apology I would appreciate it. After that please delete the topic entirely. I just feel sick about this. Thanks, Richard

[Brian Ray]

snob
n.
- One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors.

- One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.

Yes, I have seen this behavior on this board. As for Mandolinists displaying a disproportionate amount of it, I'm not sure I would agree.

I did not take your comments as being Troll-like but I can see why some might. Personally, I found Mr. Tichenor's response to you a bit harsh but it is his house and his rules.

Also... What is a Troll?

[Clyde Clevenger]

I own a few nice mandolins, I could be a little snobby except for two things. 1. I've owned the worst mandolin ever, still have it, and worked up from there. 2. There are some big dogs on this list who would politely knock my leggs right out from under me if I decided to get uppity.
So I'll stay humble, and be nice to the little people. <G>

[newmando7]

It`s funny I came to this site to find out info on a mandolin purchase.This is under newbie seeking info,but to my surprise I received very few responses.I was hoping for a little more insight from this community!.And I figured that there were more people who had been in the same situation as myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darryl Wolfe]

"...I find mandolin players, or at least the ones who participate on this board, the most obsessive and snobbish musicians I have ever come across.

I think using the word snobbish was your real mistake. #Many of us are certainly obsessive, but there is a huge difference in being snobbish.

I really like Big Joe's take on this subject and can relate to it.

Even though I am now one of the "Loar Gurus"...I was very excited with my first mandolin..a Stella with painted on binding..I progressed one by one and was elated with my Martin A..a Gibson A40..a Gibson A50...and then the jackpot, a '66 Gibson F5 with what seemed like a concrete top. #

I'm still looking for one of those Stella's and a nice Martin A

ps: I think rpolf meant no harm

[John Flynn]

I also felt that rpolf meant no harm here and I for one took no offense. I think he made a provocative statement to start a legitimate topic of discussion about the mandolin community.

I don't think everyone is this way, but there is a strong contingent in the mando community that is over the top at being snobbish about equipment. I attended a workshop once where I guy showed up with a Gilchrist. Irony was, the guy couldn't play all that well, IMHO. He definitely couldn't keep up with the workshop. Another guy uncrated a custom made F-5, but from a little known builder, but he was a great player, you could tell it right away. On the breaks, People flocked to, and talked about, the guy with the Gil. The great player they paid no mind to.

I am not ignoring that this is human nature. I am not saying everyone does it. Hell, I do it sometimes. I am just respectfully pointing out that it is a form of snobbery, or at least a behavior that supports snobbery, and that we shouldn't get up in arms about it when someone points it out.

[Jim Garber]

Strange doings on this thread. All I can hear is that rpolf is having a hard financial time and resents that others would (and could) pay big bucks for instruments.

But with his musical experience I ask how has he existed all these years. Can you even buy, for instance, a student bassoon for under $1000?

And I have seen much discussion on this board about quality instruments for under $1k. MidMos come to mind. I think rpwolf should get out of the house and go shopping and see what is out there for his experienced ears to experience.

Frankly, I am not sure what the point of any of this is. I think Scott's comment about troller is someone who just says things with or without thinking to rouse people's ire.

Also: If you were on this list for 3+ years, I can't imagine that you never came across any discussion about technique. What areas are you reading anyway. I am active on th Classical board and there is some excellent discussion on technique and I have seen other areas with the same.

Jim

[GeoMandoAlex]

I'm still fairly new to the board (as you can see by the number of posts). I have found that when I either start a topic or reply to a topic, generally the responses have been given with insight from experience. Sometimes the responses are not given as quickly as others, but regardless, I have never had a post left unresponded unless it was obvious the thread had come to an end.

As a lot of folks on the board, I came here seeking knowledge from those with experience (from those just starting to the most experienced). We all have something to give to this board and I've am grateful to all who have given me the appreciation for playing the mandolin. I have seen threads where there were "heated" discussion about which mandolin was better, but it was different opinions (the best example I can think of is which is better A-style or F-style). Usually it comes from beginners and people respond explaining that in their experience, they would do such and such for this reason. All once again are insightful, intelligent, and generally help.

Snobs on the board, there are probably a few (there is always a few in a bunch). Just a bunch of mandolin fanatics that have been able to get together to share our experiences pickin'.

Thank you Scott for creating the Mandolin Cafe board.

[Andrew Reckhart]

Wow, maybe we are a little too sensitive sometimes. #He wasn't that bad guys. #I don't honestly think (as someone who tends to stir it up around here from time to time) that he was trying to insult anybody. #His wording was poor at best, but I think that he was just trying to express his own point of view. #I can honestly see where he could develop that opinion, in select instances. #I've personally been grilled more than once because my opionion wasn't the same as some of the big shots around here. #From my experience if you disagree with any of them (other than Charlie and Big Joe who are somehow acceptable to disagree with even though they are the best authorities we have) you might get blasted or attacked or told that you know nothing about anything. #I can personally see how that can be confused for snobbery. #Nobody's opinion is more correct or more valid than anybody elses. #Facts and statistics create validity, not opinions. #Everybody says or does something that they shouldn't sometimes. #Maybe he did in the original post. #Maybe I just did right now. #But, if that's how you feel why hide it? #I'm not trying to stir things up or offend the powers that be, but it's the truth.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of snobbery as it is a matter of justifying the economics of purchasing an instrument worthy of snobbery. I use a Browning rifle when I go hunting - not a lowly Marlin (although I had one I dearly loved and wish I had it back). I use the same shafts and forged heads in my golf clubs as many PGA Touring pros. I decided long ago that hunting was worth it and that golf was worth it. That being said I'm not good enough at mandolin to say that a high dollar (to me more than say $700 to $800) is worth it - Yet. That does not stop me from wanting to get one as I love playin mandolin. Many of you have sucked it up and made the leap to a high dollar instrument and the tone of many messages is that if you too (me) want to play (pun intended) suck it up and buy one. Maybe I will (probably will). But until then I'll probably still want and look for that $700 instrument that plays like one worth 3x that. Clearly there is a market for those price point instruments - partially filled by MK. I however do not suffer from scroll envy preferring A styles and there doesn't appear to be much out there that gives one equivalent value (i.e. no scroll = more sound - tone and volume). The tone of many supposedly snobbish messages doesn't bother me as I've probably been unintentionally guilthy of it myself when I see ill fitting k-mart golf clubs. I don't believe that most people are intentionally snobbish although some are.

As to Kieth - quote "I guess if you loved Chevrolets you shouldnt want the 69 Chevelle SS because then your a snob? but better to love and want the 86 Chevette.. ( no disrespect to any that own or love them)."

The heck with the chevette get a 76 Vega so that you can join that club dedicated to the care and restoration of Vegas called - vegans :>! Oh and did that Chevelle have a 396?

Take Care! -Ed-

[Coy Wylie]

I am a relative newcomer here as well. I am absolutely enthusiastic about playing mandos and have bought two so far. I have yet to venture into the world of a hand-made American product yet. The desire is there but not the deneros. I think I understand where rpolf is coming from. I believe the orginal thread asked something like "Can you get a quality F-style under $1K." Someone immediately answered with a definitive "no" and the experienced veterans encouraged the purchase of handmade, American non-scrolled instruments at that price or slightly higher.

Now someone who may be less experienced and owns and loves an under $1K scroll at this point in his playing may take offense to these types of responses and consider the more experienced, more invested players as "snobbish." I felt that way when I read the thread on POBWAT syndrome. To me that came off as anybody who has begun playing mando in the last two years is just a wannabe, etc...

If you have seriously invested years of time and money in your mandolin adventures, I salute you. In fact, in time I hope to join you. Give us your experience, we newbies profit from your wisdom. I know you get sick of all the same old questions from people who start and then give it up in a few months. I appreciate your patience and willingness to help. However, there are a few who might want to rethink the manner in which they respond to these questions.

To those of us who are slowly moving up the food chain and suffer from chronic MAS or those who are satisfied with lesser priced instuments and at this point can't see the need to spend thousands more to upgrade, I say let's not be so thin-skinned. Enjoy the mandos you own and dream of those you hope to own. To each his own.

[mandoJeremy]

Not that it matters, but I must personally say that when I initially read rpolf's post in the other thread I was offended but I knew to just keep it to myself. I have said some things on the past that weren't nice but were not meant to be mean at all so I just learned from those. I am only offended because it states that everyone of us on this site are snobs and there may be one or two (I don't know, just guessing) but I don't consider myself one of them or the other regulars that post quite often. Some of the guys on here are very knowledgable and I count their opinions and facts very high on my list, doesn't mean I will always agree but we are all different. I am very passionate about my mando, but it is mine and some others might hate it if they played. It's called freedom of choice. Hey F5journal, I know where you can get a good Martin A at a pretty good price! Just PM me.

[mandoJeremy]

Oops, forgot to say that I personally accept your apology for calling us all snobs rpolf! We all make mistakes.

These message boards are alot like a looooong conversation at a party. A group of people have been talking, arguing, discussing, and otherwise having an excellent time dialoging and the topics range freely. You have asked many questions, solved many problems, revisited and rehashed issues, clarified points, and etc. Not everybody agrees about everything, but people come to know each other, their positions, and etc. And while the topics get heated from time to time it is possible to enjoy the process and get along. The topics get quite specialized and I can see how a newbie who just wants to know the basics can feel up to their heads and assume the "experts" are snobs.

But civil people have obligations. If you come to the party late, you don't just barge in and start yammering. You wait by the side for a bit, get a feel for the conversation, listening for a long time. The newbie has an obligation to be respectful of the group and ease into the conversation. But the folks already in the conversation have obligations too, (if they want to be civil), to welcome and encourage new members. Older members, it seems to me, have an obligation to be patient with the occasional "stale," or thoughtless question or comment.

I think if the FAQ list was more elaborate, some conflict might be avoided, but I think you guys should just expect newbies (like myself) to ask dumb questions. Some pages set up "newbie" threads in which the newbie can ask dumb questions and the grandfatherly type can not make them feel like tiresome burdens.

rhetoric

p.s. In a real conversation, the face-to-face nature of human interaction tends to keep people civil, but on-line it's easy to get caustic and/or mistake good natured humor and etc. for sarcasm, ridicule, and etc.. It's easy to miss the non-verbal behaviors that capture mood and intention. Maybe he said "snobbery" with an honest smile on his face?

[jlb]

I think there are several factors that contribute to mando-snobbery, whether real or percieved, not the least of which is that high-grade mandolins are expensive as he!!. To get a guitar or banjo of equal sonic quality to a mandolin, you'll generally pay a lot less $. So high-end mando buyers fork out some serious cash for their instruments. As such, at least hopefully, they spend alot of time and energy learning about their options, and most end up feeling they have spent their money as best they could, so they will naturally have alot to say. Then you have the less secure, hopefully a minority, who will spend time justifying their decision by putting others down...again, lets hope this is a minority.

Also consider that musicians in general can tend to be a bit egotistical, and the relative anonimity of an internet board will expose that to an even greater extent than live conversation.

Just my 2 cents...I think most people here are nopt trying to be snobs, just trying to give their insights.

[bratsche]

I, too, am left stunned by some of the acrimony that this thread, which seemed innocent to me as well, has generated.

I, too, think rpolf means no harm.

Jim, I didn't even sense any resentment in his comments. If they were there, then I suppose one would have to suspect anyone who's in less than ideal financial circumstances of being resentful of those more fortunate, even myself, though Lord knows I am anything but.

Also, where there is a will, there is a way. I too have played professional music since before I was 20, and right now my main axe is a viola that I paid $1100 for on eBay in '98. I have owned more expensive ones, but none better. It has a wonderful sound, I love it to death, but right now I can't even afford to insure it, so you better believe that I guard it with my life. I have too many mandolins (3), and will probably have to give some of them up. As I have stated before, I have made an art form of frugal living, and take a certain pride in that fact.

Coming to this board in the first place was, for me, a direct result of Googling the word "mandola" - I wanted one of those from the time I first heard of their existence. At that same time, I didn't even know there was such a thing as an F-style mandolin (or even one with f-holes). Okay, I've led a somewhat sheltered musical life, playing only in opera and symphonic orchestras - I admit it!

I usually just sit back and regard all the topics such as rpolf alludes to with mild amusement, rather than anything else. I have never seen anything like it in the real-world musical scene I inhabit. I have no envy whatever toward 'the Loar crowd', especially since when the Mando Tasting thread was posted last year, I unknowingly rejected the Loars and most of the high end F styles in the first round, since "that sound" is not what I find particularly appealing to these ears.

We just have to remember that we are all individuals with individual tastes, desires and needs, as well as circumstances, and we should get along just fine, IMO.

bratsche