What is Irish Mandolin?

[Bertram Henze]

This makes me think of the newer Irish tunes that are played in a very syncopated way. That does not mean, however, that they have no pulse - the pulse is just different, though I am not sure how to dance to that.

Bertram

[Martin Jonas]

One of the (many) good things about the weekend residential course in Wiston Lodge organised by the Lanarkshire Guitar & Mandolin Association was that there was a dance on the Saturday night, with an ad hoc ceilidh band recruited from the course participants. #Standard Scottish country dance repertoire, really. #If I remember right, the band was guitar, bouzouki and about five mandolins. #No fiddles, no pipes, no squeezeboxes (apart from Alan Jones getting out his English concertina now and then). #Worked very well, and yes, I do believe that being able to play for a dance helps a lot with putting the tunes on a solid rhythmic foundation. #It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.

Martin

[Bertram Henze]

It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.

Well, I think speeding in Scotland's sessions is mainly prevented by the fact that there's always at least one dominant piper present, and the others can do nothing but play along with his pace.
One of the Irish sessions I attend has two or three step dancers; after supersonic tunesets they always complain, but it rarely helps. The fast track players (one of them on mandolin, yes) either want to impress the audience or, more probably, can't slow down because their muscle memory would fail, which is a pity because with the speed the individual rhythm of the single notes (which makes part of that Irish feel) gets lost. Many tricky hornpipes get flattened out into ringtone reels.

Bertram

[whistler]

[/QUOTE]It also stops the manic arms race for greatest speed, although I think that's more an Irish than a Scottish thing anyway.

[QUOTE]

Interesting. I've found that the Scottish players I have played with tend to be on the fast side. Also, pipers often play rather fast. I don't know much about the regional peculiarities of traditional music in Scotland, but in Ireland, the average speed certainly varies from place to place - Donegal musicians (BTW the most Scottish influenced) are famous for being in permamnent overdrive, whilst Clare and Galway musicians typically play at a much more laid back, or 'steady' pace. Of course, wherever you go, there are hares and tortoises - personally, I'd sooner play with the latter.

[Avi Ziv]

I think that there is a lot of unused potential that doesn't require going up and down the neck (ITM is mostly a first position music as described by Tommy Peoples, but I think that is changing, too)

Interesting. Recently I started thinking that emulating fiddle fingering and technique is not the only way to map out a tune. Of course there is a huge influence there, but the instruments are quite different. More sepcifically - the amount of sound that a fiddler can get when bowing across the E string cannot be matched on the mandolin. I began identifying cases where I'm happier with the quality and flexibility of ornamentation when moving up the neck occasionally. I'm really at the infancy of this "discovery" and I'm sure I am not the first to notice it. However, for me it's been a revelation. To be even more specific - I've been working on a 3-part waltz called Waltz from Orsa, where in the second part there is a lot of back and fourth movement between g-b and f#-a. I found that I can get a lot bigger and complex sound by shifting up for the the b part and playing across the a/e strings and then shifting back down for the c part. I looked up some tunes in the Simon Mayor book and realized that he is mapping tunes on the fretboard to get certain effects and it finally clicked. Now, I don't have Mayor's sound as a goal of mine but I appreciate this aspect of his out-of-the-box thinking. Although emulation is very important, I think that at some point it has to give (a little) way to an instrument-specfiic approach.

Thanks for a most intersting thread
Avi

[POB]

I bet all the examples you give like Paddy Fahey could do a dance no bother. I think I'm right in saying that's how Martin Hayes started - didn't he play in his Dad's ceilidh band or something like that?

Absolutely! Paddy Fahey was a member of the Aughrim Slopes Céilí Band and Martin Hayes and his late father P.J. were members of the Tulla Céilí band.

[Bren]

I think speeding in Scotland's sessions is mainly prevented by the fact that there's always at least one dominant piper present

There's seldom a piper present in NE Scotland sessions - it's definitely fiddle country. Some of them play pretty fast sometimes and almost every musician you meet at a session here has played in, or currently plays in, a ceilidh band - that's how they make a few quid, because there's such a demand up here for ceilidhs.It definitely shows in their rhythm but a lot of the young musicians roll their eyes at ceilidh tunes, presumably because they play them so much that they must be bored with them, and want to try something different at a session. I like the dance tempo myself, but then I don't play dances as often as these folk, who are playing dances twice a week sometimes

[Dagger Gordon]

Bump. Too good a thread to lose.

I'm sure many of you have heard a lot more of this kind of thing since Aidan's labour of love finally appeared (and worth the wait! Thanks Aidan.) If you haven't heard it, it slipped out without much fanfare on the 'Getting there' thread.

I'm sure the different styles of players and mandos have given you plenty to talk about.

[danb]

Dagger, are you able to post a picture of your sobell? It's pretty impressive, suddenly it's like Thor's hammer when you hit that low c!

Yes, Aidan's a good lad, great to see that collection of tunes finally out in the world. Here's the link to An Maindilin, the collection of mp3s formerly known as "the glass slipper" in case anyone missed it

[Dagger Gordon]

I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty useless at that kind of thing. By the way, the low string is tuned to D. Far more useful to me than C

[Dagger Gordon]

Bump.

This was a really interesting thread. I see someone new is asking about this kind of thing, so I've revived it.

You should listen to Aidan Crossey's collection free on his Pay The Reckoning site. A lot of good stuff there.

[Dagger Gordon]

Bump in response to a question by Manicmando.

[jc2]

Remember when you're talking about doing other things, that the melody is what it is really all about in trad Irish music. In competition, even the trios must all play the melody all the time. So even though trad has it's charms, you don't often hear the pure dorp of it: even in sessions there will be strummers and other accompaniment. Are mandolins more suited to be solo or very small group instruments?

[Caleb]

Man, this is a great thread. #It should be required reading for anyone intersted in Irish mandolin!

I've been interested in Irish mandolin for about a year or so and it's been an interesting ride, both trying to learn how to play it (which I'm terrible at), and trying to find good CDs to listen to. #

The first real exposure I had to Irish mandolin was at a workshop with Rick C. #Up till then I'd only heard bits and pieces here and there of it, but knew that I wanted to learn more about it. #He told the "class" that it's best to listen to all sorts of other instruments in Irish music to get a "feel" for the music. #I had no clue what he really meant at that point, and for weeks later I still didn't get it. I actually found the entire subject pretty frustrating. But I *do* get it now. #I find myself trying to bring in some of the sounds of other instruments into my playing, and while I'm still mighty green, it's really fun.

I'll be going to my first Irish music retreat this month and I'm really excited about learning more about this music. #

[Lou Scuderi]

I have to agree, this is a great thread. I've been playing irish trad on my mando for almost 6 years now, but I've had a very strange musical education (Classical cellist, mostly self-taught mandolinist, bagpiper, etc.), so until recently I haven't had many influences specifically on the mando.
@ Slacker,
Are you going to the O'Flaherty retreat in Texas? I play with Dave every Sunday in the local Tucson session, and he's an incredible mandolinist. You'll have a great time, wish I could join you (but being a physics and astronomy major in college means that I am trapped on campus ).

[Caleb]

@ Slacker,
Are you going to the O'Flaherty retreat in Texas? #

Yes, that's the one.

[JeffD]

I haven't read all nine pages so if I repeat someone's point my apologies.

Focus on what the mandolin can do that no other instrument can do. One thing is tremolo. I have had great fun and success playing slower tunes, aires and such, on mandolin with a lot of what my New Mexico friends call "high lonesome" tremolo.

It works really well on a Scots Air like Archibald McDonald of Keppoch, or Limerick's Lament played painfully slow. Perhaps not good session choices, but great performance choices, and certainly the mandolin can do them justice in a way other instruments cannot.

[Dagger Gordon]

Actually tremolo wasn't discussed enough in the 9 pages.

I've just been teaching a mandolin class where we looked at the Scots air 'Mist covered mountains of home'. Using tremolo makes the tune sound much better, and is, as you say, very much a mandolin technique.

I think, on reading over some of the posts for the first time in about a year, that too much time was spent discussing the limitations of the mandolin.

Not being as loud as the banjo in sessions is perhaps the main problem. But the banjo isn't good for airs and lacks sustain. I would say mandolin is a much more versatile instrument.

I think the mandolin suffers as a result of the importance put on sessions, where it is not heard to best advantage.

[jmcgann]

I think the mandolin suffers as a result of the importance put on sessions, where it is not heard to best advantage.

Very true...and I enjoy sessions, but it's such a 'group organism' that is so different from an performing band with arrangements where the mando can be featured. With a good PA system, all is well in Mandoland!