Playing a long roll on an Octave Mandolin

[1860]

When I play some Irish Fiddle Tunes I am a bit stumped by how to do a roll as well as you can do it on a Fiddle. I tend to try and do it by moving my finger while staying in the same fret. It sort of works but is not as well as on a Fiddle. Any advice?

Thanks

Marc

[Unseen122]

I would like to know also, it just never sounds right.

[Bertram Henze]

On most such ornaments, I just pick every single note like with a triplet. This limits my speed on the tune itself, so for fast sessions I also have less ornamented versions.
For those who try do it right, however, there's this site: zouk ornaments

The ease of a fiddler with that cannot be reached, IMHO, for reasons of size, string tension, paired strings instead of single etc. It's like driving a formula-one race with a truck.

Bertram

[zoukboy]

On most such ornaments, I just pick every single note like with a triplet. This limits my speed on the tune itself, so for fast sessions I also have less ornamented versions.
For those who try do it right, however, there's this site: zouk ornaments

The ease of a fiddler with that cannot be reached, IMHO, for reasons of size, string tension, paired strings instead of single etc. It's like driving a formula-one race with a truck.

Rolls are definitely easier on the fiddle than the mando, but they come from the pipes and are a wind instrument phenomenon that has been picked up by almost every instrument brought into Irish trad music since the pipes (that would be all the others).

One thing to keep in mind is that rolls are really more of a rhythmic event than a melodic passage. They are a way of playing 2 to 3 notes of the same pitch in succession without staccato fingering on the pipes or tonguing on the flute and whistle.

When adapting these to the mando or bouzouki the tough thing to avoid is playing all of the notes in the roll with equal duration. Theoretically, only the primary notes, those of the note being "rolled", are of equal duration and the "cuts" and "taps" (to use piping terminology) are of much less duration. While it is a good idea to learn to play rolls this way in actual practice oftentimes the first of the primary notes is of longer duration than the others.

It's ironic in a way that string players play rolls because separating three notes of the same pitch with a bow or pick is the most natural thing to do. But the roll has become the foundation of most wind and fiddle playing in Irish music and so it is really tempting to do. And they are such a #$^%* challenge on fretted instruments that it is almost impossible to ignore them.

Unlike Bertram, I don't pick every note when I play rolls on the mando and bouzouki. At tempo that tends to even out the time value of the 5 notes and ends up not sounding very roll-like to my ear.

I use legato fingering in the left hand, much like the fiddle. In a long roll (5 notes equaling one dotted quarter note) I pick the first note, hammer on the 2nd, pull off to the 3rd, pull off to the 4th, and pick the 5th.

The 1st, 3rd and 5th notes are the same pitch, the 2nd is above and the 4th below. For instance, if I were playing a long roll on the E (2nd fret D string) I would pick the E, hammer to G, pull G down to E, pull E down to D and pick E.

The hammer on to G and subsequent pull offs to E and to D are really one long, continuous motion that sustains the illusion of a continuity of sound between picking the 1st ad 5th notes.

Also keep in mind that the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the roll are longer than the 2nd and 4th, which are simply interrruptions of the string's vibration which articulate the three notes of a common pitch.

The challenge in adapting these techniques for the mandolin (and bouzouki) is not so much one of facility or ease, you can learn that, but it's the inherent drop in volume when not picking. It takes a lot of strength to do the hammer-pull-pull of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th notes and keep them audible. I tend to use the old classical guitar trick of playing the notes before and after the roll softer to reduce the contrast.

I have an article on ornamentation for the mandolin here:

http://www.mandolinsessions.com/feb05/celtic.html

Enjoy!

[Steve L]

Man, would it be nice to have sound clips for those "mandornament" examples!!

[zoukboy]

Man, would it be nice to have sound clips for those "mandornament" examples!!

Most of those are covered in my section of Volume 1 of the ZoukFest instructional videos:

http://zoukfest.com/instructional.html

and it includes a 1/2 speed section on rolls.

[Bertram Henze]

The challenge in adapting these techniques for the mandolin (and bouzouki) is not so much one of facility or ease, you can learn that, but it's the inherent drop in volume when not picking. It takes a lot of strength to do the hammer-pull-pull of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th notes and keep them audible. I tend to use the old classical guitar trick of playing the notes before and after the roll softer to reduce the contrast.

That's the very reason I pick every note during session tunes - after all how do you know you're having fun if nobody hears you having it (my apologies to late Douglas Adams for misuse of a citation).
I sometimes do this hammer-on thing in short rolls when accompanying songs and in similar beauty-over-volume situations, but it would just drown in a session.

Bertram

[zoukboy]

That's the very reason I pick every note during session tunes - after all how do you know you're having fun if nobody hears you having it (my apologies to late Douglas Adams for misuse of a citation).
I sometimes do this hammer-on thing in short rolls when accompanying songs and in similar beauty-over-volume situations, but it would just drown in a session.

I'd be interested to hear how long rolls with every note picked would sound. I doubt that it sounds much like a roll on the fiddle, does it?

The important thing is the feel of ornament--the tune will be affected even if it isn't obvious or clear what you are doing to the other players.

[1860]

Hey guys thanks for the good explanations.

Roger, since you have given quite a detailed and very good explanation on the roll, while you are at it maybe you can explain what the heck that is that you were doing in "The Dewdrops on the Corn" in the House to House CD. That sounds really amazing, is it a cut?

Regards

Marc

[zoukboy]

Hey guys thanks for the good explanations.

Roger, since you have given quite a detailed and very good explanation on the roll, while you are at it maybe you can explain what the heck that is that you were doing in "The Dewdrops on the Corn" in the House to House CD. That sounds really amazing, is it a cut?

Regards

Marc

You're welcome.

Not sure what part of "Dewdrops" you're referring to Marc...?

[Bertram Henze]

I'd be interested to hear how long rolls with every note picked would sound. I doubt that it sounds much like a roll on the fiddle, does it?

Well no it does not. I am not intending to mimick another instrument, instead I like to emphasize the features of my own instrument.

Here is a snippet of Chief O'Neill's Hornpipe with a short roll and some triplets. You even may say I've got the wording wrong and that this roll is not really a roll, but then I welcome any suggestions for a better name.

Bertram

[1860]

Not sure what part of "Dewdrops" you're referring to Marc...?

OK you got me there... I am referring to the really cool part. I wish I could describe it better. It sounds like a cut or something... anyways it happens quite a few times in the track at 1:56 or so and at 2:20.

By the way House to House is probably the CD that I listen to the most. It is really great work.

Regards

Marc

[zoukboy]

Well no it does not. I am not intending to mimick another instrument, instead I like to emphasize the features of my own instrument.

Here is a snippet of Chief O'Neill's Hornpipe with a short roll and some triplets. You even may say I've got the wording wrong and that this roll is not really a roll, but then I welcome any suggestions for a better name.

Bertram

Bertram - thanks for posting that. I wouldn't call that a roll because it has a different rhythmic effect. Because you are picking all 4 notes in the short roll they tend to come out evenly and that makes it something else. I don't know what you'd call it, it sounds to me a bit like a harpsichord ornament called a "grupetto", which is a bit like a short roll in that it starts on the note above the one being ornamented.

[zoukboy]

OK you got me there... I am referring to the really cool part. I wish I could describe it better. It sounds like a cut or something... anyways it happens quite a few times in the track at 1:56 or so and at 2:20.

By the way House to House is probably the CD that I listen to the most. It is really great work.

Regards

Marc

Glad you're enjoying the CD Marc!

I just listened back to that track. That is a stuttering type of triplet that I call a "Left Hand Muted Triplet" because the LH fingers are actually muting the 1st and 2nd notes.

In this case the note being ornamented is the low D and the triplet is on the backbeat after a low D in the tune. The first note of the triplet is fingered like the F# on the 4th fret except that the strings aren't pushed down to the fret - instead, the finger just touches the string in order to stop its vibration momentarily. The 2nd note is the same except it's near the 2nd fret (but isn't fretted either) and the 3rd note is another D open.

In ABC it would look like this:

T:Jig Triplet
M:9/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
K:D
D.F/.E/D D3||

Or you can look at this page:

http://mandolinsessions.com/feb05/celtic.html

Sometimes I play a crann there, though, but I didn't hear one at that place in the track. I have cranns notated on the mandolinsessions page as well.

Enjoy!

[Bertram Henze]

it sounds to me a bit like a harpsichord ornament called a "grupetto", which is a bit like a short roll in that it starts on the note above the one being ornamented.

At least the harpsichord is a closer relative, sound-wise, than the fiddle.

Bertram

[rclepper]

I just listened back to that track. That is a stuttering type of triplet that I call a "Left Hand Muted Triplet" because the LH fingers are actually muting the 1st and 2nd notes.

John Doyle described something very similar to this as a popular tenor banjo trick. I've found it to be quite useful on zouk/OM.

Randy

[zoukboy]

John Doyle described something very similar to this as a popular tenor banjo trick. I've found it to be quite useful on zouk/OM.

Randy[/QUOTE]
I got it back in the early 80s from tenor banjo player Sean O'Driscoll, who lived in Saint Paul for a few years and made his way down to Kansas City pretty frequently.

As with any of these "articulations" they can vary quite a bit from instrument to instrument. I play this one on mandolin, bouzouki and tenor banjo and it works a little differently on each.

[danb]

That muted one you are discussing is similar to a favorite trick of mine.. 3 notes in a triplet, middle note muted with fingertip on left hand.

Another is to mute the whole board, and slow a downstroke strum so you sound a triplet on 3 separate courses, you get a nice Brrrpp sound.

[zoukboy]

That muted one you are discussing is similar to a favorite trick of mine.. 3 notes in a triplet, middle note muted with fingertip on left hand.

I use that one a lot, too. Playing one muted note in between two unmuted open notes, like: .D/.E/D or .A/.c/A

It comes from staccato triplets in uilleann piping.

[jmcgann]

I find rolls are easier on an instrument with larger frets and good sustain- both OM and little mando.

[whistler]

I have a favourite ornament I use on open strings, which I use, mainly in jigs, where a piper would cran. It consists of an 1/8-note followed by a picked descending triplet, thus:

D (3 F#ED

Sometimes, in tunes with a lot of cranning opportunites, as a variation, I play a G in place of the F#.

It works well in tunes like The Humours of Ballyloughlin and An Phis Fliuch.

[zoukboy]

I have a favourite ornament I use on open strings, which I use, mainly in jigs, where a piper would cran. It consists of an 1/8-note followed by a picked descending triplet, thus:

D (3 F#ED

Sometimes, in tunes with a lot of cranning opportunites, as a variation, I play a G in place of the F#.

It works well in tunes like The Humours of Ballyloughlin and An Phis Fliuch.

Right on, Whistler. That one's used a lot by fiddlers in place of a crann when playing piping tunes. I often do that one without really fretting the F# and E notes, rather just touching the string with the fingers used to fret those notes and briefly interrupting the string's vibration. Gives a nice staccato sound like a staccato triplet on the uilleann pipe chanter.

I also have a way of playing a "crann" on the mando (and bouzouki). It's described in my article on mandolin ornaments for Irish music on the Mel Bay Mandolin Sessions website:

http://mandolinsessions.com/feb05/celtic.html