minor madness

[dough-re-mi]

I'm a little confused about minor mode/quality. I don't particularly mind being confused since it gives me something to work on, but I think I could benefit from the wisdom of more experienced musicians.

In some ear training work I'm doing, I hear a scale and am asked to identify whether it is harmonic, natural or melodic minor. OK, so I go learn what those are, and what they sound like. Along the way, Aebersold really stresses the Dorian mode, saying that's the scale to use over minor chords. In common with all four/five of these (given that melodic minor has different ascending vs descending forms) is that they have the same first tetrachord scale degrees, the 1-2-flat3-4 altered from the major scale with the same name.

Why are there so many minors? Wanting to ground this a little, I looked through the vast library of little-used instructional materials which I store in my house, and find two versions of Greensleeves. One is in Horne's Beginning Mandolin book, where he gives the tune without saying a lot about the minor key (Dm). The other is in Hearing and Writing Music by Gorow, which says a little more, noting that this version "is in the Dorian Mode (E minor with major 6th and minor 7th scale tones..")

Neither version is satisfied to just use a minor key signature, they each sharp a couple of tones over and beyond the minor key signature, the 6th and 7th, (except for when they don't sharp those sounds). I guess that's art :-).

Perhaps Greensleeves is not a typical example, but it is the only one I happen to have at hand.

So what do people know about minor scales that they feel is worth retaining? I ultimately want to ground this in the sound more than anything else. How are minor scales used in actual tunes?

John

[Peter Hackman]

I would say that generally the Dorian is something altogether different
from various minor keys/modes. The minor sixth contributes
to the mystery and darkness of minor just as much as the
minor third.



In music classes at school,
I ''learned'' that there were
two minor scales, melodic and harmonic, and
even after 48 years of playing I can never remember
which is which.
One was supposed to have different ascending and descending forms.
The practical
significance and use of this was never explained or exemplified.
It just seems that sometimes a c, sometimes a c sharp, is right
in a d minor song, depending on the general mood
or the harmonic context.

I never bothered to theorize
over that, just learned the songs and played them and found the variations
that pleased me most. The beauty of minor keys lies in their instability and
ambiguity, I suppose.

[Shana Aisenberg]

Here's the formula for a few of them. It can be useful to build them all from the same root note to compare.

natural minor (aka aeolian mode) 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7b
harmonic minor 1 2 3b 4 5 6b 7
melodic minor (ascending) 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7
dorian 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b

Seth

[jmcgann]

"Chord scales" is a concept in jazz pedagogy that explains when to use what scale in the context of the chord progression. If you are talking diatonic to a major key:

Let's talk key of C:

Dm7 IIm7: dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (D E F G A B C)
Em7 IIIm7: phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 ( E F G A B C D)
Am7 VIm7: aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (A B C D E F G)
Bm7b5 Viim7b5: locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (B C D E F G A)

Now, before you glaze over, all notes are the C scale. That's what I mean by context: There's no sharps or flats on the notes themselves, but the note functions explain how that notes sound against the chord of the moment.

Meditate on that for awhile and you'll see how to use what mode when...

Melodic Minor can be thought of as a major scale with a flat 3 (Oxymoron yep): 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7. The ascending/descending biz applies only to pre-1900's classical music-don't worry about it. This is the "Real Jazz Minor" scale.
There are some VERY USEFUL MODES here too.

Harmonic Minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. Some VERY USEFUL MODES here too. Check out jazzmando.com and Ted's upcoming book to get more mileage out of these puppies.

[dough-re-mi]

Thanks. Just dropping the whole ascending/descending thing is helpful.

One small thing: what do you mean, "some VERY USEFUL MODES here"? None of the modes you list correspond to the harmonic or or "jazz" minor scales.

Also, could someone point out examples of actual melodies that use one vs another of these modes/scales? My sense is that these are mostly used in more-or-less ephemeral improvisation.

[Shana Aisenberg]

The fifth mode of the harmonic minor is highly used in klezmer, Arabic, Greek, Balkan, etc. It's known as freygish in yiddish, hijaz in Arabic. Formula is 1, 2b, 3, 4, 5, 6b, 7b. There is recent a thread on freygish elsewhere on mandolincafe, and if you visit MelBay mandolin sessions, a couple of my columns on klezmer have tunes that use this mode. The fourth mode of harmonic minor is also often used in klezmer and gypsy music.

Seth

[mandocrucian]

Modes Made Easy on the Mandolin Cafe lessons section.

Niles H

[jmcgann]

"some VERY USEFUL MODES here"? None of the modes you list correspond to the harmonic or or "jazz" minor scales.

The Melodic and Harmonic minor scales have their own modes. The "Altered" scale is the 7th mode of Melodic minor. The "Lydian b7" mode is the 4th degree of Melodic minor. The 5th mode of Harmonic is used a lot in bebop and fits perfectly over the b7b9b13 chord as well as being a common "Eastern" mode.

[David Horovitz]

Let's talk key of C:

Dm7 IIm7: dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (D E F G A B C)
Em7 IIIm7: phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 ( E F G A B C D)
Am7 VIm7: aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (A B C D E F G)
Bm7b5 Viim7b5: locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 (B C D E F G A)

Now, before you glaze over, all notes are the C scale. That's what I mean by context: There's no sharps or flats on the notes themselves, but the note functions explain how that notes sound against the chord of the moment.

Thanks John, it's very helpful to think of the modes in relation to the chords and to see how they each start on a different degree of the major scale.

One thing I'm confused about looking at your example, why would Em7 iiim7 phrygian have b3 and b7? Wouldn't this mean that the G and D notes would actually need to be Gb and Db? Similar question for aeolian and locrian examples.

[jmcgann]

One thing I'm confused about looking at your example, why would Em7 iiim7 phrygian have b3 and b7? Wouldn't this mean that the G and D notes would actually need to be Gb and Db? Similar question for aeolian and locrian examples.

All the notes remain diatonic to the key of C, so Em HAS to have a b3 to make it a minor chord- the natural 3rd of E is G#, which is not diatonic to C. So the flats and sharps are relative to the major scale from the root of the chord in question, not relative to the key of C.

[David Horovitz]

Got it, thanks! I had some music theory in college, but alas, many years ago.

[groveland]

<span style='color:GRAY'><span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>Psssst! The scale IS the chord, and the chord IS the scale!</span></span>

[jmcgann]

Psssst! The scale IS the chord, and the chord IS the scale! #

The truth whispered! The truth is most evident when you understand what the chord's key function is- then you can apply the proper mode/scale for the situation. Some work better than others in a given scenario, of course...

Notice that there is a "shell" minor sound that the "diatonic" (derived from a major scale) minor modes share- 1 b3 5 b7. Add the 4 and you have a minor pentatonic.

Dorian= natural 6
Aeolian ('natural minor')= b6
Phyrgian= b2 b6
Locrian= b2 b5 b6

Those are the diatonic minor modes. A minor 7th chord can take and of the 1st 3. Listen how that one note really changes the emotional character of the "mood" interaction between the note and chord. It's a 6 for dorian (usually a IIm7) and b6 for aeolian (Usually a Vim7). The Locrian would be used for a m7b5 chord.

The non-diatonic Melodic and Harmonic Minors: natural 7 is one distinguishing feature of melodic (with natural 6) and harmonic (with b6).

With any theory, the best thing to do is sit down and play, applying the scale/chord in a real life situation i.e. a tune! Like any language, you need a real situation to practice "speaking" to make it real and not just words on a page...

[WJF]

One thing I've found useful to get the sound of the scale/chord relationship in my ear is to use Band-In-A-Box. I'll enter in say, 4 bars each of a iim7, a vim7 am7b5 etc and then play the modes against them. Being able to hear how the mode sounds against the scale really helps my ear to hear the relationships better. Of course as John says, the best practice is working through these things in a "real" situation but if that isn't readily available to you, you may want to give BIAB a try.

[groveland]

Try looking at it like this:

As you know, you can build chords off each tone of (most) scales.

Typically we talk about the triads built on the degrees of a scale, or the 'seventh' chords built on the degrees of a scale. The resulting chord types - major, minor and diminished triads, or ma7, mi7, 7, and half diminished chords - are small ambiguous pieces of some scale that may occur at multiple places in that scale - From that little information alone, you can't tell what scale to play, because that fragment can have multiple source scales. #In other words, you can never generally assert "Over a minor chord play a dorian scale." #A minor chord has many parent scales, so you can't generalize that way. You can't say "over a mi7 chord play a dorian scale" either, if the mi7 chord you refer to consists of only the 1, b3, 5, and b7. #There's not enough information there to identify an entire scale. #Best case, you can play all the scales that parent a chord consisting of the 1, b3, 5, and b7, or stick with the chord tones only - Or, as we always do, look at the harmonic context, the surrounding chords, and determine what the role of the chord in question is (the ii? the iii? the vi?) and choose a scale accordingly (dorian? phrygian? aeolian?) #That works.

But at the end of the day, there is NO ambiguity if we identify the largest chord possible on any given tone of a scale: That chord contains all the notes of that scale. For example, any chord built from C major or any of its modes (including dorian, your example) will comprise of CDEFGAB. This is the basis of "Chord/Scale Theory". A unique chord is built on each degree of the scale this way, as unique as the mode itself. #There is no ambiguity. D dorian consists of DEFGABC. E phrygian is EFGABCD. A minor (aeolian) consists of ABCDEFG. Etc. #The chords of the C major scale are really

I - CDEFGAB
ii - DEFGABC
iii - EFGABCD
IV - FGABCDE
V - GABCDEF
vi - ABCDEFG
vii - BCDEFGA

(The 4th of any chord will generally be an 'avoid' note, a dissonant note, in both chord and scale.)

This eliminates any ambiguity in theory. #The chord is the entire scale. #

There is still a naming problem, though. #The I and IV chord both have ma7 chords in them. #The ii, iii, and vi still have mi7 chords in them. #I see a chart and it names a mi7 chord, what do I play? dorian? phrygian? aeolian? #I see a ma7 chord, what do I play? ionian? lydian? I see a simple major chord, what do I play? #ionian? lydian? mixolydian?

When there is a harmonic context, the musician figures out what modes are possible, for example, for a mi7 chord. #A Dmi7 chord built on the ii of a scale is not the same as a Dmi7 chord built on the iii of another scale and on the vi of another! The ii, iii, and vi will all exhibit different extensions. #To get around this ambiguity, some theorists have solved this by ensuring each mode of a given scale gets a unique name to identify to the improviser exactly what degree of the scale is intended. #Where our typical name will suffice it is used, and any extensions or alterations are implied. One such naming system:
CDEFGAB = C ma7
DEFGABC = D mi7
EFGABCD = E sus(b9)
FGABCDE = F ma7(#4)
GABCDEF = G 7
ABCDEFG = A mi7(b6)
BCDEFGA = B half dim.
In fact, the name of the chord becomes synonymous with the scale - The dorian chord, the phrygian chord, etc. The idea is to eliminate the ambiguity and clearly identify the intended degree/mode of the scale. #(Notice that the name ma7, mi7 7, and half dim. are still used, because they are only used once - also, the extensions are implied, not omitted.)

(The above process is applied to all modes of all scales, including harmonic minor and melodic minor. In summary: "chord/scales".)

The bottom line is, you have to KNOW what the function of the chord is to determine what to play over it. #Is this minor chord the ii, the iii, the vi? #If there's not enough musical information going on at any given moment to define exactly what it is, then YOU as the improviser have the open door to add your own chord tones and define the context. #That's where it really gets fun, when the defined harmony is ambiguous enough to allow you to invent your own connecting threads and take the tune somewhere else. #In fact, if you're playing with the right folks, they'll purposely leave ambiguity so you can stretch out.

I'll probably read all this later and regret it.

[jmcgann]

Of course, it gets more fun and confusing when you realize you don't have to stop and start on the root note- for example, just play

DEFGABCD

And play that line against each of the 7 diatonic C chords (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim). Each time the chord changes, the line effectively becomes the mode defined by the chord- so when you play the Em chord, the line sounds phrygian, and when you play the Am, the line sounds aeolian.

There are times when the 1st note of the line "sits funny" against the chord, i.e. starting on the D note against the C may ruffle your root-music feathers a bit, as it is sounds as the 2 (or 9) of C.

After awhile you get to know these sounds very well and you learn to hear them ahead of time, thus becoming a top flight improvisor, fully prepared to be rejected from any band ("we play for the song, man") and living in depressing poverty making time payments on your mandolin, while some buff young idiot with a bass line, no chords and a beat box who wouldn't know a pentatonic scale from a picket fence buys his third mansion in Bel Aire*

The first 30 years of theory are the hardest, it gets way easier after that

*but I'm not bitter

[groveland]

And play that line against each of the 7 diatonic C chords (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim). Each time the chord changes, the line effectively becomes the mode defined by the chord... There are times when the 1st note of the line "sits funny" against the chord

Some folks have discovered this and said, "Hey that's great! Now I can take all those D dorian licks I know and just change the chord I'm playing against to C major: And all my D habits become new chops in C major! #Great! I get something for nothing!"

No, not so fast! Your old D dorian chops sound great against a D tonic, and are very much designed with the F as the signature minor 3rd and the C as the b7 which is what gives those licks gravity and direction... Now all of a sudden you are applying those same chops to a C tonic, and guess what? Your 3rd is now a 4th (avoid note - dissonant!) and your b7 is now the tonic.

All of a sudden, your great old habits sound bad - Unresolved - Floating - Directionless. #You find yourself landing on the 4th a lot, saying "Wait, that ain't right!" and then quickly compensating down to the third or up to the fifth.

That's one example, with major and dorian. So the point is that, even though all the diatonic modes of the major scale (or other scales) all share the same notes as their 'parent', they are all unique scales unto themselves with each degree performing a function!

[jmcgann]

they are all unique scales unto themselves with each degree performing a function!

And the function is all relative to the chord of the moment. So maybe "the chord IS the scale" doesn't apply so well here after all...

[groveland]

The 'chord is the scale' is exactly the reason why our D dorian chops that land on the 3rd don't work over a C major chord. The C major scale and D dorian scale have the same notes, but are functionally entirely different chord/scales. The 3rd of one functions as the (sus) 4th of the other.

I am well known for my pedantic nature.

[jmcgann]

The 'chord is the scale' is exactly the reason why our D dorian chops that land on the 3rd don't work over a C major chord. The C major scale and D dorian scale have the same notes, but are functionally entirely different chord/scales. The 3rd of one functions as the (sus) 4th of the other.

Excellent point and very clearly stated. Theory is a confusing language until it's not, isn't it?

I, however, must admit reeking of pedantry on occasion myself. However, I am way more non-competitive than anyone