a classical Embergher reproduction

[labraid]

Hi all,
I`ve been doing a bit of research and now we`ve come to this:



...the form, in solid mahogany with maple neck and mahogany endblock, ready for ribs.

When things come along, I`ll have quite a few questions no doubt, for all of you in the know. I`m hoping this project can develop into a collaboration between all of you, the players, and myself. As such, I`m open to all of your thoughts, and hoping to receive as many comments, solicited or otherwise, and critiques as she moves along. I`m doing my best to follow the set of four plans/posters (I forget the name of the provider, but many thanks to him for a great job.), however, they were taken from a single instrument, and what I hope to do is build something that will take the best of the Embergher`s evolution, and build it for you here.
That`s the idea anyway.
In the end, I`d like to pass her around to all interested in playing her, but that remains to be seen, if there is any interest in this.
I hope you all enjoy the pictures as they come...

[labraid]

a few more views.

[markmdavis]

Wow - the form looks quite beautiful! Keep us posted as this project progresses.
MMD

[Jim Garber]

Yes, Brian, an exciting proposition. I am sure that others with more expertise will chime in here.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Beautiful, Brian. I am puzzled, though... what do you mean by "form"? I must be missing something... Is that the mold? Admittedly, I'm only familiar with the usual, "Neapolitan", face-down molds, on which the staves, already curved at the heating iron, are laid— doga madre in the center, then working your way outwards. But at that stage, the neck is obviously NOT connected to the bowl. All the bowl has, in its neonatal stage, is the neck-block (into which the neck is set LATER) and the butt, with the internal support for the eventual string-holders, etc. Hence my confusion...

Care to shed some light on your modus operandi? Your work does look very beautiful, and very promising.

Cheers,

Victor

[brunello97]

Brian, this is more exciting than the upcoming Fall Classic (significantly more.)

Victor, here is an image I believe I got from the MC somewhere, showing the the forms/molds, with what I understand are necks-to-be already in place (temporarily fit to the bowl form) awaiting further finishing once the staves/doge are in place. Is this a correct interpretation? Or does the assembled bowl get re-fit to a finished neck?




Thanks, Victor, for the doga madre reference.


Brian can obviously clear up some of this. On a Puglisi I disassembled the neck block and neck were of one piece, the doge attached directly, as opposed to what I've found on Washburn or other US made mandolins with a separate dove-tailed joint between neck and block.

I am sure there are other methods of construction-neck/body joints of which I am totally ignorant and would love to find out more about.

Go, Brian, go.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

Victor,

From what I can dertermin from the various photographs that I have seen of Italian mandolin building establishments, the neck is almost always #attached to the form/mould and the ribs glued directly to the neck extension. It would seem that it was only the Amercian bowl back builders from the 1890s or so on that used a separate neck often using a horizontal dovetail. This technique I suspect was taken from guitar building ideas. I can't find a pic I thought I had of a Italisn shop. I am going to build a bowlback myself in the next year, so I am interested to see how Brian approaches the process. There is little information out there that I have found.

cheers

graham

[vkioulaphides]

Part of what confuses me is the sheer beauty of the form that Brian speaks of; it seems as if it somehow wants to become part of the finished instrument— which, of course, no mold ever is.

I have been to several bowl-shops and have seen semi-finished bowls both with and without necks (or "proto-necks") attached to them. But, again, many luthiers use a "dummy neck" as a stencil of sorts, just for the alignment of the staves. This dummy, along with the mold, is obviously NOT meant to remain a part of the finished instrument.

I certainly don't mean to criticize Brian, but only inquire for my own knowledge. I trust that my comments come across as inquisitive, not negative.

Best of luck and success, Brian.

[labraid]

Oh, not at all, this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for!
The bowl was finished, in my reasoning, so that if ever any glue were to seep through the spruce shavings (backer), it would not stick permanently to the bowl. Plus, I like the look, as you say, it calls to be worked on.
The one piece neck idea just seems ideal. Not only have I read that most Italian builders do it this way, I agree with what was probably their reasoning: A neck joint is a point of weakness, and it serves only if you are planning to take things apart one day. Ideally, one does not need to replace a neck during the life of an instrument, and you do all you can so that will be the case.
What causes a neck to be replaced?
-A break near the nut caused by shock under full string tension. Add front and back veneers to the peghead and you diminish the chances of this immensely (not to mention an internal stiffener to be mentioned below).
-Warping. But we use dehumidifiers these days in our shops, the wood is equilibrated throughout the building process, wood movement is therefore diminished (note I did not say eliminated). String tension in a classical is low, and the neck is thick, especially this Embergher neck which I`d say has fairly normal cross sectional area, but which is tall--it acts better as a beam than a flatter, wider, shallower neck. What`s more, I`d like to add a stiffener. A slice of ebony, not too thick but rather tall, will not add greatly to the mass, and will create a plywood effect reducing the tendency for neck movement.
The neck is not actually attached to the bowl in any way, but rather both are secured to a workboard (plank). Once the staves are on and set, the bowl and neck will be detached from the workboard and the bowl/form should slip out pretty easily with maybe less than a tap of a hammer around the rim. The endblock "de-"wedges.
Does that clear things up somewhat?

[brunello97]

Nice description, Brian. Thanks. A few more questions if you don't mind:

Is the 'workboard' what we see clamped to your worktable?

How do you secure the form and neck to it?

Does any type of joint hold the neck to the form so that it can also 'release' when the ribs are in place? Or is the neck simply aligned and then held to the workboard/plank?

Does the final shaping of the neck occur after the ribs are glued up?

Will you veneer the neck? (That is something that truly amazes me.)

Is the end block (tail-block?) also temporarily set into a pocket or something in the formwork so that it releases along with the ribs?

Thanks again for opening this discussion. Bowlback construction has long seemed so mysterious to me. (It still is.) But you are slowly opening the sesame.

Mick

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, Brian, your excellent explanation sheds all the light I needed. Thank you.

Indeed, it is certainly a desideratum that the neck be as firmly attached to the bowl; even those luthiers who work with separate/separable pieces adhere to the "as-if-one-piece" ideal. You are, of course, using one piece for real, no "as if". Bravo!

To explain my perspective: I know for a fact that both in Greece (whence my eyewitness experience) and in Italy (where I have friends and colleagues) there are craftsmen —and sometimes entire SHOPS!— that build, (read: mass-produce) bowls ONLY. I once committed a (hopefully mild) offense on the English language by coining the original term "bowlwright" (as in "boatwright", "wheelwright", etc.) These folks build bowls by the hundreds, using the customary rosewood and maple, but also European walnut, chestnut, and even "exotic" woods (by European standards) such as mahogany, Madagascar or Indian rosewood (not really rosewoods, I am told) and bubinga—#charmingly called "carnation-tree" in Greece, because of the pinkish/rosy, poppy-seed laden color/texture. These bowlwrights then simply sell their wares to "luthiers proper", who do the rest.

I stand witness to hundreds upon hundreds of neckless bowls. While upscale boutiques and solo luthiers (such as you, Brian) take the high road, what I described is, well, Main Street. One must also step back in history and remember how come the mandolin became Everyman's Instrument: some stages of its production lend themselves for MASS-production. I am also told that even venerable lutheries in Italy do not frown upon the practice of "outsourcing" their bowl-building to the busy bowlwrights of Catania and Sicily in general. No names mentioned...

Also, the molds I am familiar with are not solid like the ones posted above, but instead resemble a rib-cage of sorts: the "spine" is where the doga madre or "mother-staff" is laid, clamped on both ends. But the rest of the mold is like, well... a mammal's rib-cage, with several ribs intersecting the spine at several, respective "vertebrae". I trust you visualize what I am describing. On either end of this mold, several small clamps, to hold each new staff in place. In most I have seen, the clamps are moveable, so that you don't need dozens of them. Larger, lateral clamps are also part of the "scaffolding", to hold the eventual collanza, the clasp or harness.

A "stiffener" is very common in Greece, especially in long-necked instruments, such as bouzoukis— the obvious reason, Warp-o-Phobia. The "main body" of the neck has a groove carved in it, into which an ebony rod is inlaid, as a "immovable truss-rod". I am not qualified, of course, to say how much such a thing is needed on a mandolin. You surely would know better than I. Still, I can readily attest that several of my Greek mandolins have one, and that none has ever had a warped neck.

I should really shut up and sit down, though. Since you are going down Embergher Road, I know precious little about those instruments. I wish you the very, very, VERY best in your noble endeavor, and sign off with the faint hope —if any— that some day I will be able to afford one of those instruments that come out of your skillful hands. *sigh*

Cheers,

Victor

[brunello97]

Victor,

The formwork (framework?) you describe sounds amazing. I imagine something like that could potentially be made adjustable to work for different sizes, profiles, etc. The architect in me is most fascinated by this stuff. (Remember it was Brunelleschi's machines and Michelangelo's scaffolding that allowed them to do the work for which they might be most famous.) Would you have any photos to share of this?

Brian: How do you plan on holding the staves in place while you are laying them up?

This has been a very nice Sunday morning conversation!

Mick

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, Mick... I do have such images in books— yes, I am hopelessly, incurably old-fashioned. # Quite "asleep at the wheel" for a few decades-or-so, and scanner-less. Let me see what I can do, if I can find someone WITH a scanner, and try to be more helpful than just blabber on.

To my knowledge, such scaffolding is fixed and defines the form of the product, i.e. the bowl that will emerge from it. In other words, the luthiers I am speaking of have a "mandolin-mold", a "pre-WWII bouzouki-mold", a "post-WWII bouzouki-mold", a "Cretan-laouto-mold", etc. So, while the mechanism of all is the same, I know of none that are adjustable. Now, if you mean "scaleable", well... of course! Any mold can be built to (almost) any scale, yielding its own "progeny" of like-shaped, like-sized bowls. In my feeble knowledge of the mandolin's history, THIS is the very, ah... Brunelleschian force that put a mandolin into just about everyone's hands in its heyday. Think Model T... #

[labraid]

Is the 'workboard' what we see clamped to your worktable? #

Yes, a hard maple 50mmx50mm workboard.

How do you secure the form and neck to it?

Very long screws for the bowl, very short ones for the neck. Note, the ebony stiffener is not yet in there, and the screwholes, being right on center, will be excavated to make way for the stiffener.

Does any type of joint hold the neck to the form so that it can also 'release' when the ribs are in place? Or is the neck simply aligned and then held to the workboard/plank?

No connection between neck and bowl, they are just very close. I've already noticed, however, when carving the neck to match the shape of the bowl, that there is some movement, and I think for the next mandolin I will fashion a slip joint connection that will just come undone when the bowl needs to be removed later on--thus the two will be held horizontally in unison, but will release vertically.

Does the final shaping of the neck occur after the ribs are glued up?

I haven't yet figured this one out as a definite, but I think I will indeed go ahead and shape the neck, and have it complete, so that once the ribs are on and the form released, only the top attachment will remain. Does it really matter a whole lot? no, it is just easier to manipulate a neck than a whole, near-complete mandolin.

Will you veneer the neck? (That is something that truly amazes me.)

Veneering. Correct me if this isn't the veneer you're talking about, but there will be a 1mm "veneer" on the front of the peghead, and one on the back. It is structural as well as visual. The back one especially, where the wood is under tension, the veneer, being straight-grained, reinforces the peghead rear which is almost always slant-grained and vulnerable.

Is the end block (tail-block?) also temporarily set into a pocket or something in the formwork so that it releases along with the ribs?

Yes, it is wedged from the bottom side (2 degree degrade on each side), so it will unwedge when the time comes to lift out. This was my own idea, I am not exactly sure how it was done otherwise, but am sure it will work as well as any other method could.

How do you plan on holding the staves in place while you are laying them up?

The first stave will go on and be held tight with a wide rubber band down it's length, head to toe. And maybe some pushpins when needed on the blocks.
For the ones that follow, my favorite idea yet involves small wood blocks with cutoff nails protruding just enough to grab the stave on one side, while the other side will receive the same large rubber bands. Doing two staves at a time, one on either side, they will pull toward one another, clamping to the ever-growing mid-section, and to the form itself. This was my method before, and it has worked well, even without the help of a form underneath to support it. Is it the best method? There might be better ones, but I haven't looked at how other's do it (Yet!)

You have a lot of experience with the Greek bouzouki, Victor? My grandfather was a Jacovides, from Cyprus. He left me all of his records from the old days, grew up loving that Greek bouzouki sound... Would love to make one! (a question of time perhaps)

[Jim Garber]

Will you veneer the neck? (That is something that truly amazes me.)

Veneering. Correct me if this isn't the veneer you're talking about, but there will be a 1mm "veneer" on the front of the peghead, and one on the back. It is structural as well as visual. The back one especially, where the wood is under tension, the veneer, being straight-grained, reinforces the peghead rear which is almost always slant-grained and vulnerable.

Lot's of questions, Brian, eh? Are you sorry that you invited us into your workshop?

To clarify Mick's question: it is not the headstock that he is referring to but the technique that many neapolitan makers used of sheathing the neck in a veneer. Both Vinaccia and Calace used that but you are building a Roman mandolin and with the exception of the very ornate models which had tortoise shell veneers over the neck, most of the Embergers did not.

Here, for illustration are the neck details of more pedestrian Calace and Emberghers. The Calace has a rosewood veneer on the neck. the Embergher has none, just the bare neck.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Even this very ornate model 7 has a plain neck.

Jim

[brunello97]

Brian, Thanks so much for your careful blow by blow answers. I think I am starting to visualize your process. Clearly you have thought this through carefully. I suppose you have built bowlbacks before?

If I haven't exhausted you, I do have a couple more questions......

What is the wide 'skirt" piece that wraps around the end of the bowl called? Typically this covers the tail-ends of the staves.

It is easy to see from your photo how the staves will fit into the notch on the neck providing a flush transition. I can't quite tell from the photo how that will work on the tail block so as to allow the "skirt" to overlay flush-ly. Does this question make sense?

I don't think I quite understand your nail /block/rubber band clamping system, but if we could convince you to post some assembly photos it would probably clear all that up.

As to the neck-veneer...I have a Stridente mandolin, and also a Lanfranco on which the neck itself was covered with a thin veneer. It strikes me as very odd and difficult. You can detect a little air pocket or two revealing its existance. Otherwise, quite clean work. I don't know if the Embergher model you are working from has this feature.

Well that is probably enough peppering of questions for one day. Good thing I didn't run into you at a party or I'd be backing you into a corner and really asking a lot of questions.

I look forward to hearing more about your ongoing work. Best of luck with the project.

thanks,

Mick

[vkioulaphides]

"You have a lot of experience with the Greek bouzouki, Victor? My grandfather was a Jacovides, from Cyprus... Would love to make one!"

Well, I have some experience with the bouzouki. As one of our most august Café contributors once wrote (quite correctly), the Greek bouzouki is a "mandolinized saz": a long-necked lute, probably of Persian descent, originally with a one-piece, CARVED bowl, "married" to the mandolin tradition that existed in Greece (as imported from nearby Italy) since the latter part of the 18th century. Hence the unique, local hubrid.

As regards the bowl specifically, it is interesting to note that pre-war bouzoukis had an almond-shaped, mandolin/mandola-like bowl; it was only in the post-war evolution of the instrument —now with 8 strings, not the traditional 6— that the larger, wider bowls became common.

For obvious reasons, preventing warping of the neck is THE concern on the #bouzouki-builder's mind. Nothing more pathetic than the poorly built, banana-shaped bouzouki, merely a few years old... # Hence all the stiffeners, ebony rods, etc. Many bouzouki-builders use truss-rods by now, of course. Also, almost all higher-end instruments have MULTIPLE veneers on the neck, for added resistance. Again, however, I doubt the value of taking such heavy-handed measures on the dainty, little mandolin.

So, ehm... rubber bands, eh? No clamps? Sounds intriguing... Again, you are not bound by the exigencies of those old shops, and you are your own man, your own luthier. To give you an idea of mass-production: I once owned a lovely Giovanni de Meglio of 1897, model 1A; during Giovanni's tenure at the shop, the company put out over 10,000 pieces of this model! Naturally, much of the routine cutting, bending, clamping, polishing, etc. was done by countless apprentices, performing only the basic task(s) in which they were skilled. Let it also not be concluded that mass-production led to poor product; said instrument —and ALL such I have seen, heard, or played— were truly excellent mandolins, well crafted and fine sounding instruments.

Still, there is great excitement in figuring things out as you go. Best of luck!

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"What is the wide 'skirt" piece that wraps around the end of the bowl called? Typically this covers the tail-ends of the staves."

"Clasp", or "harness". This is the colloquial collanza I mentioned earlier, as it "collates" the staves.

[Jim Garber]

A little more about the veneer question. I believe that one purpose of that technique was to cover the dovetail joint for the headstock to the neck. I believe that the Emberghers' necks were one piece hence no need to cover up that part.

The Calaces and Vinaccia I have also have a triangular piece of pearl or ebony covering that joint.

Jim

[otterly2k]

Victor... it seems to me that rubber bands, if used as clamps, ARE clamps. As are clothes pins, binder clips, surgical tubing, string, straps, or anything else...whatever it takes to hold something together,right??

[Jim Garber]

Hopefully one of our Embergher experts will chime in soon as to the construction aspects of this master. Hint, hint...

Jim

[Graham McDonald]

The idea I have been working on for holding the neck in alignment on the workboard was a strip of 1/4 x 1/2" timber attached to the workboard which would mate with a slot in the neck. This would be replaced by a carbon fiber bar once the neck/body assembly was removed from the workboard. I am not really convinced that there is any need to re-enforce a classical mandolin neck at all. I don't think I have ever seen a neck actually warped, even the lightes of the veneered Italian ones. The problem is almost always with the whole neck rotating a little. Perhaps the slight concavity as the ribs come to the neckblock in the Embergher design adds some mechanical strength to this area, but I'm not enough of an engineer to have any more than a slight gut feeling on that.

I do like the slightly tapered end block idea. My thoughts there had been to very lightly glue that block to the mould with animal glue and pop it off with a knife once the ribs were glued, in the same way violin makers glue the blocks to an inside mould when making the rib assembly of a fiddle. I would be inclined to also glue the extension of the neck to the mould as well. Both being endgrain joints, it should be a simple joint to pop open (there's optimism for you!)

That photo of the workshop with the moulds uses circular springs as clamps to hold the ribs in place (I think)which is also an interesting idea.

cheers

graham

[labraid]

Great idea about the truss slot. Dual purpose, I like. Just can`t hit too hard with a mallet, unless it were metal, and not wood, protruding from the workboard.
Ah, veneered neck, now I see. Ok, no, not on an Embergher. Thanks for clearing that up Jim.
The rubber bands I use, they are about 1/4" wide, and doubled over twenty times, I wouldn't be surprised if it exceeded the pressure exerted by a metal clamp, though it is a blanket pressure, and not focused, which is really their greatest utility.

[vkioulaphides]

Good morning, all.

A few words, by way of clarification, and sharing of experience:

"...rubber bands, if used as clamps, ARE clamps."

Ehm... well, yes, of course. I was, however, contrasting rubber bands to the usual clamps made of metal and wood, exerting pressure by a screw-like mechanism. But, again, I never meant to imply that Brian is doing anything "wrong", just "unfamiliar to me".

"I don't think I have ever seen a neck actually warped, even the lightes of the veneered Italian ones."

Oh, Graham, I must have seen HUNDREDS of warped mandolin necks, ESPECIALLY on vintage bowlbacks— caused, most usually, by the excessive tension put on these poor, delicate creatures by BG strings. Still, I do agree with your comment that

"I am not really convinced that there is any need to re-enforce a classical mandolin neck at all."

Indeed. Especially an Embergher-esque V-neck, if well crafted, should be able to offer adequately stiff resistance to any appropriate strings. To my understanding, this is one of the reasons why Mr. E.'s instruments have held up so very well in time.

"That photo of the workshop with the moulds uses circular springs as clamps to hold the ribs in place."

With all due respect and apologies, that picture weirds me out. It looks like one of those KGB-doctored images of some dissident, depicted as sunbathing in Cuba, AFTER having been assassinated in Siberia. To explain:

In my (hopelessly narrow-minded) view, a luthier's shop has a floor of raw cement, strewn with wood-shavings; au contraire, this image has a... carpet (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?) A shop has shelves, tools, bottles of varnish; this has a... television (?!?!?!?!?!?) It makes no sense at all... this is more like someone's living room, not a lutherie at all. Where IS this place?

More saliently: the metal contraptions appear (to me, at least) to be compass-like instruments of measurement, NOT clamp-like instruments of pressure. I may very well be wrong but, to be truthful as to the extent of my limited experience, I have never seen such a thing as those rings. Hmm...