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Thread: Bowlbacks of Note

  1. #7276

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.

  2. #7277
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.
    Yes, that is all I could fine—lots of guitars in Brazil.
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  3. #7278
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Rione Amadeo would have been a very up market address in old Naples, a zone with grand buildings and show-piece palaces.
    Probably why it appeared so boldly on the gilded lettering adding to the sense of luxury.
    I would love if we could get some more background about the elderly owner's grandmother. We already can tell she or her family were able to shop for expensive and unique instruments in places with prestigious addresses. It would be really nice to get the link back to their acquisition and a flavour of who could buy and commission these rarities.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by vic-victor View Post
    The maker, Di Giorgio is still alive and well (as a business, of course) in Brazil. Not sure if the modern one has a connection to the original one in question, but quite possibly. I had a Di Giorgio guitar once before.
    I think that is Romeo Di Georgio (born in Rome 1888] who emigrated to Rio and opened his guitar shop in 1908, no mention of Naples in his career.
    Still no info on G. Di Giorgio I have found yet. Probably one for one of our Italian friends to sniff out.
    Eoin



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  6. #7280

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I have no acquaintance with the family that owns these instruments but, from the granddaughter's account of her grandmother, I do get a sense of a life of luxury and leisure. On that account, she lived visiting opera houses around the world, painting for her own pleasure, writing poetry for her friends and family, and collecting things of beauty-- which brings us where we are. She also apparently played the "mandolin", if by that we are to surmise that she played these.

    That strikes me as remarkably odd. It seems wildly recherche to be playing such instruments, by any standard out of the ordinary. The family lived in various parts of Latin America but that's neither here nor there; they are Spanish-speakers, not Portuguese-speaking Brazilians. Besides, the world has been cosmopolitan for much longer than one might at first assume. Italian luthiers often emigrated to the Americas, others, American-born apprenticed in Europe etc.

    I have asked for more images. I don't count much on getting any meaningful, descriptive information from the current owner. I will be happy to share...
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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  8. #7281
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I just scoured a few of my instrument books and find very few instruments that resemble what we can see of these two. If, indeed, there is an extended tuning area a large number of examples are more like teorbos or instruments with harp extensions (like the arch-citterns). Closest I can find are the Italian citterns below. Sorry they got cut off but these are large books. If there are any of interest I can scan those photos. The color one is a French cittern from the 17th century. You should be able to read the decription on the two pages (from Baines book.)

    Citterns seem to almost always have flat backs but we don't have a clue what theses look like. Looking forward (if possible) to seeing larger more detailed photos.

    BTW, Victor, our friend Carlo Aonzo has done some extensive research on mandolin-like instruments like these.
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  10. #7282

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham McDonald View Post
    OK, here's one for the brains trust. Just spent the day with mando type things in the Stearns Collection at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and found this one. It is a bowl back 12 string (6x2) mandolin with 21 fluted rosewood ribs. and these strange combination of soundholes. The ebony fret board is flat, but scolloped between the frets. It has a hand written label of 'Luigi Embergher, Roma 1890' as well as something which could well be COSTRUTTORE D' STRUMENTI ARMONICI, but handwritten and indistinct, that Alex T mentions on the Embergher site on labels from around that period. It is fitted with gut and (I think) wound over gut strings. The tuners are normal on the back, but the posts come through two plates attached to the front of the head. Might it be some strange double course Milanese/Lombardic mandolin or something I don't know about at all

    cheers

    graham

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    Searching for images of something altogether different, I stumbled across this posted during one of my prolonged absences from the cafe. I first observed this instrument around 2003 or '04 when I was working on a couple invited chapters to a failed book project (initiated by Dan'l Terry, later taken up by Gregg Miner, and then entirely abandoned; it was intended to be something like what Graham's book came to be, but more "mandolino"/"mandola"-centric with only cursory mentions to ancestors of differing names). I returned to the Stearns specifically to measure this instrument in 2006 or '08 or so (I have notes someplace in my office from which I am exiled by COVID). Dr. Lam was curator at the time of those visits. At that time, the Stearns warehouse was in deplorable condition. I get the impression that they may have come to be better funded since.

    I was convinced that this piece was an early and deliberately experimental—likely a one-off to satisfy his own curiosity—Embergher. The crispness of line and interior of the bowl are telling. It's not too different from his known early pieces with tension pegs, e.g. I had some correspondence with Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt to follow (I do know that was 2008). We'd intended to collaborate on an article. However, day job intervened, and I never got around to it. At the time, I'd speculated that the piece was built to the concept of "mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche" as described in the appendix to Pisani (1899). (Although it had the remnants of some gut strings on it. Its bridge had also been glued to the soundboard, and I don't believe it was originally. I suspect some meddling, possibly by whoever originally acquired it for Frederick Stearns.)
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-19-2020 at 12:44pm.

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  12. #7283

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    PS: I dug a little deeper into my e-mail archive on this odd 6-course Embergher. It looks like my first visit with the piece was in summer 2004 and my return was in autumn 2008. While we discussed an article in 2008, I found that I'd first written to Ralf Leenen and Barry Pratt regarding the instrument in January 2005. This was before I had checked the terminology proposed by Pisani as referenced above. An excerpted copy-and-paste transcription from our 2005 correspondence:

    I do not believe the university has the original acquisition documentation for every piece in the collection. Stearns collected instruments throughout the late 19th c. and donated his collection to the University of Michigan in 1899. This mandolin was in the collection when it was first catalogued by the university in 1918; I suspect it was part of the original donated collection in 1899. I don't believe anybody has used or worked on the instrument since.

    I suspect this thing is authentic, but it certainly is odd. It is not like anything else of which I'm aware to have originated in Embergher's shop. The label is handwritten in script on a rather ornately shaped paper label: an exact transcript:

    Luigi Embergher
    Costruttore di Strumen-
    ti Armonici
    Roma
    1890

    ("Strumenti" didn't quite fit onto the line given the ornamental cut of the paper.) The instrument's decor is very spartan, but the construction is very neat. The bowl features 23 ribs of rosewood, 21 of which are fluted. Its interior is meticulously and perfectly lined with wood shavings. The soundboard features a small, central oval hole flanked by a pair of stylized f holes. The cant is very pronounced. I believe the bridge was once free of the table, but some owner in its past sloppily slathered a great amount of glue to fix the bridge in its current position. The scale is rather shortish and Lombard-like: 300 mm. The ebony fingerboard is obviously scalloped. The headstock is a strongly tapered "V" shape with its point at the terminus. It features geared tuners, six to a side, that appear original. This was built for 6 courses of paired strings and, I would speculate, Lombard tuning: g-b-e'-a'-d"-g". It has old broken and worn gut and wound multi-filament strings on it at present; I thought this instrument might have originally been intended for gut, but, on further thought, the cant and geared tuners would seem to imply its intended stringing was metal. I believe this piece was crafted in Embergher's own hands and represents a rather odd effort at hybridizing Roman and Lombard mandolin types, perhaps a six-course mandolin of decidedly Roman style to capture the old Lombard-type markets.

    Because I'd referenced the Stearns Collection's published catalogue, here's its entry on the piece (transcribed from 2008 e-mail correspondence with Dr. Joseph Lam, but I'd originally transcribed it from the physical document, full citation below):

    1058. Mandolino, Italy: Oval body. Purfled sound-board. Machine head. Three pairs of gut, and an equal number of over-spun silk strings. Twenty metal frets. One oval and two F sound-holes. V-shaped head. Length, 61 cm; of body, 32 cm; width, 21 cm; depth, 14 cm. Signed--"Luigi Embergher, Roma, 1890."
    Stanley, A. A. 1918. Catalogue of the Stearns Collection of Musical Instruments. The Univ. of MI, Ann Arbor. (Ohio State University's music and dance library actually holds a physical copy of the catalogue. For the pathologically curious, it should be available via inter-library loan.)
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-22-2020 at 4:57pm.

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  14. #7284

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    PPS: And, just for good measure, from the appendix "Varie forme di mandolini e strumenti affini" of Pisani's method (Pisani, A. 1899. Manuale teorico–pratico del mandolinista. Ulrico Hoepli Editore, Milan):

    Mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche: Il Casini ha costruito anche questo tipo di mandolino, per ovviare forse all'inconveniente che presentano i mandolini lombardi, che le corde si frangono con estrema facilità e ben di frequente. La tastiera è identica a quella del mandolino lombardo. Le corde 12 cioè 6 doppie (unisone a due a due). [pg. 133]

    My effort at translation:

    Lombard mandolin with doubled metal strings: Casini has also constructed this type of mandolin, perhaps in order to obviate the disadvantage that Lombard mandolins present, that the strings break extremely easily and very frequently. The fingerboard is identical to that of the Lombard mandolin. The strings 12, that is 6 doubled strings (the two of a course played in unison).
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-22-2020 at 5:00pm.

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  16. #7285

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I was talking to Lorenzo Lippi some time ago and he mentioned that he once had a chance to look at Embergher's archive of private orders and that E. was willing to accommodate individual orders as funny as adjusting the bowl shape to suit the shape of a fat belly for one of the customers, for example. I guess this one could have been the private order for Bandurria-like instrument that was completed using the mandolin body E. had in stock.

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  18. #7286

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    . . . and there certainly was some precedent for the existence of a "Mandolino lombardo a corde doppie metalliche."

  19. #7287
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Here it is, once again, for posteriority.

    Mick
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Eugene: Interesting... I thought that all Lombard mandolinos had gut/nylon strings. I don't know which Casini Pisani mentions, but my 1896 mandolino is by Serafino and single-strung for gut. Actually I only have standard Neapolitan style mandolins in my file for Giuseppe Casini of Napoli.

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  22. #7289
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Perhaps answering Bro' Eug's question from 2008 (thread post # 3912) here is a "Griffith" mandolin on the Ebay.

    Elegantly shaped rosewood bowl, nice detailing and graceful fretboard extension.
    The Philadelphia address and the various details makes one assume an association with Weymann or perhaps OSchmidt up the NJ Turnpike.

    Maybe a similar tailpiece pulled into Nazareth and wound up on a Martin bowl such as Eugene was asking about....

    It's a pretty mandolin under all that grime.

    Mick
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  24. #7290

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    My daughter pointed this one out to me on eBay. It's intriguing, but it needs just a little more work than I'd feel up to investing in it.

  25. #7291
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I was just browsing old editions of the BMG Magazine (from the archive here) and came across the cover of the December 1949 edition. I believe the instrument E.J. Tyrell is playing is a Gelas bowlback, with rather more decorations than normally seen on Gelas instruments. It also looks to have a very narrow soundboard, but that may be because of the angle he's holding it.

    Martin
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  27. #7292

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Certainly looks Gelas-esque.

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  29. #7293
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Perhaps answering Bro' Eug's question from 2008 (thread post # 3912) here is a "Griffith" mandolin on the Ebay.

    Elegantly shaped rosewood bowl, nice detailing and graceful fretboard extension.
    The Philadelphia address and the various details makes one assume an association with Weymann or perhaps OSchmidt up the NJ Turnpike.

    Maybe a similar tailpiece pulled into Nazareth and wound up on a Martin bowl such as Eugene was asking about....

    It's a pretty mandolin under all that grime.

    Mick
    Seems to also be another plainer Griffith. I couldn't find the first one. Have a link?
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  30. #7294
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I bought a sequined suit from a Pearly Queen.....

    Likely from the good folks at L+H, now at Elderly.

    Pretty out of control design-wise, but the fretboard, soundhole inlay and pickguard combo are muy splendido.

    You don't see that very often outside of Catania...

    Maple bowl.

    Mick
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  32. #7295
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    I think that is an early Washburn style 80 but there Is a fluted style 85 beyond that glitz. I think I have a tailpiece like that somewhere. Mick, did you really buy it?
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  34. #7296
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    No, no, Jim. I just thought that inlay was a notch or two (or three) above what we often see in US bowls...which tended much more to the 'classical' in decoration, particularly post Columbian Exhibition in Chicago, which was likely still very influential at the time of this mandolin.

    The beautiful Chicago linework of Sullivan and Wright doesn't really show up in GreatLakesRim mandolins, the way Art Deco / Liberty Style was so reflected in Calace and Cristofaro's work from the era. This one leans a little more that way to my eye.

    Mick
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  35. #7297

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Seems to also be another plainer Griffith. I couldn't find the first one. Have a link?
    I missed this query back then, but didn't have the link anyhow. My daughter showed it to me, I noted, and mentally moved on.

  36. #7298

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by vkioulaphides View Post
    Greetings, all.

    This truly goes under "asking for a friend". I have neither direct acquaintance with the owner of these instruments nor any business interest in them. My only understanding is that the owner is an elderly lady who has cherished these instruments for decades but doesn't know exactly what they are, what they are worth, who the next owner may be after her passing and all that. She lives abroad so she doesn't even know whether the materials render them non-exportable.

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    My most rudimentary question is, what are they? I'm a very, ah... street-level mandolinist so anything beyond the modern, Neapolitan mandolin is fine print to me, indiscernible.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    Dear Victor,

    These two items are ornamental miniature mandolins/lutes, crafted in Napoli in the middle of the XIXth century. Similar one here :
    http://www.pauldegrande.com/antique/...rument-in-box/
    I have one very similar too and will try to post pictures of it.
    They belong to the vast series of miniature instruments manufactured from the end of XVIIIth century for different decorative purposes, among others for putting into the hands of Arlequino statues in Christmas Nativity scenes. They exist in many different sizes and were not meant to be played at all !

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  38. #7299
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

    Quote Originally Posted by quartino View Post
    Dear Victor,

    These two items are ornamental miniature mandolins/lutes, crafted in Napoli in the middle of the XIXth century. Similar one here :
    http://www.pauldegrande.com/antique/...rument-in-box/
    I have one very similar too and will try to post pictures of it.
    They belong to the vast series of miniature instruments manufactured from the end of XVIIIth century for different decorative purposes, among others for putting into the hands of Arlequino statues in Christmas Nativity scenes. They exist in many different sizes and were not meant to be played at all !
    Assolutamente meraviglioso.

    Please post pictures of yours, if you will. I enjoy the link you shared. The case in finto guscio di tartaruga is superb.

    Mick
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  40. #7300

    Default Re: Bowlbacks of Note

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    Here are my miniature mandolins. The largest (probably one of these Di Giorgio's, unfortunately without its case and in less nice condition than the ones pictured earlier) is 40 cm long. The third from the top seems to be the oldest one, probably end of XVIIIth century.

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