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Thread: Is a# the same as bb?

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    What is the difference between A# and Bb? The way I see it is, if a song calls for Bb, I find the A chord I want to use and slide it up a fret. Is this wrong? Is it the same thing as finding the B chord and sliding it down a fret?
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    There is no difference between A sharp and B flat. So long as you are using a four finger chord, sliding an A chord up a fret and a B chord down a fret will both yield a B flat chord. If you have open strings, you can still "slide up" by putting a finger on the first fret of the open strings, but sliding down is a tad more complicated ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Cragger @ Nov. 09 2006, 09:09)
    What is the difference between A# and Bb? #The way I see it is, if a song calls for Bb, I find the A chord I want to use and slide it up a fret. #Is this wrong? #Is it the same thing as finding the B chord and sliding it down a fret?
    No, its called an enharmonic. They are both the same position on a closed chord.

    And yes, you would move a half step (one fret) one way or the other depending on your chord.
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    Yes they are the same, whether it's called one or the other will basically depend on the key the song is in.

    For example in a "Flat" key like F the notes are

    F G A Bb C D E F

    In the "Sharp" key of B the notes are

    B C# D# E F# G# A# B

    The A# and Bb are the same note but notated differently depending on the context (as Glenn said this is called an enharmonic).

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    In non-equal temperments, possible on instruments like the violin, it's possible that A# and Bb will not be exactly the same pitch (http://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/tmprment.html)
    But in equal tempertment, like on mando, piano, etc, the different names are used purely for theory, to clearly communicate the key, context and intention.

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    On mando it's likely one of your pair of strings is close to A# than Bb anyway

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    It's like homonym. They both sound the same, but they are spelled differently and are usually used in different contexts. Fortunately, you don't have to worry about that unless you are writing music, or analyzing the harmony or something.
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    Bb is a lot more friendly than A# for one thing.

    BTW, I'm a bit rusty on all this. Since a scale must, as far as I remember, have a different letter for each note, what are the notes in A#:
    A#, B#, C double sharp?, D#, E#, F.. I give up.

    And what is the key signature? If you select A# on Band in a Box, it shows four flats - A, B, D, E.

    I'm lost.

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    Richard, you're talking about a KEY of A#, which nobody would ever use...the key signature would (theoretically) have 10 sharps if I'm not mistaken! #As you realized it's much simpler to spell out the key as Bb. #

    However A# NOTES and A# CHORDS can come up in other keys, as in the key of B I spelled out above. #

    Not sure exactly what BIAB is doing but I think you confused it....the key with 4 flats it's giving you is Ab (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab)




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    it sounds like you can easily visualize a A chord, thus sliding it up 1/2 step is easier to visualize than actually making a Bb chord - which is ok, but..

    one thing to remember is that chords have home keys and related chords within those keys that often (esp in Folk styles) follow a pattern, in the long run, its gonna be easier to learn how all these chords work together BECAUSE they often follow a pattern - for example, many tunes have the progression I > bIII ( 1 chord to b3rd chord ) #which in the key of G = G > Bb. all this falls into proper chord theory ( i wont get into this - long subject ) and to think of that same progression as I > #II ( 1 chord to #2 chord - G > A#) is just going to make the aural recognition of this movement (progression, chord change, whatever you want to call it) more difficult.

    btw, to illustrate how all this works in the jam...90% of the time if you see (hear i should say) G going to Bb, the NEXT chord is more than likely C ... (think Boone Creeks great 70's classic 'One Way Track') that is just how the harmony moves. #when you get *way* up there in theory study, one of the MOST important movements you will begin to recognize are chords that *cycle* thru the circle of 5ths (ok, i wont get any further into this - just think Sweet Georgia Brown, or the bridge to Rawhide) - if you mentally know that F7 is usually *cycled* into Bb7, it all follows a set pattern...in other words, you wouldnt think F7 > A#7 - although its the *same* chord, you would just be complicating your thinking.

    i guess what all this is trying to say is that you need to determine the FUNCTION of the chord within the progression to determine which one to call it. now take G# or F# or D# or C#, now, in those cases, you WOULD normally think in sharps, and NOT Ab, or Gb...this goes back to the key cycle and way to much info for this post.....

    its like math, you have 2+2=4 and you could have 6-2=4....its not hard, it just takes some basic fundamentals.




  11. #11

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    "Not sure exactly what BIAB is doing but I think you confused it....the key with 4 flats it's giving you is Ab (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab)" Walter Newton

    WN, I was just trying to remember where those double sharps are used.

    On the BIAB score, they give 4 flats for the key signature of D#, G# and A# (also of course Ab). When I try to put in the A# scale, they just use the accidentals.

    Also, they give 5 flats as the signature for C# and 6 for F#.

    Not sure why I'm even interested in this at 10 minutes to midnight.

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    Richard, I believe D#, G#, and A# major are all keys which you could theoretically spell out as an exercise, with double sharps, but in the "real world" they would be referred to as their enharmonic flat keys (Eb, Ab, Bb). I don't think BIAB is giving you good answers for some of these theoretically possible, but never used keys.

    Does this help?

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    Yes, the good old circle.
    Someday I'll try to decide if some tunes never made it with musicians (expecially classical tunes) because they were originally written in a "hard" key.

    Db didn't seem to hurt Body and Soul. But I noticed our pianist left out "I just called to say I love you" in a book she was selecting tunes from and I suspect it was the Db key. At least she seemed more keen when I rewrote it in Bb and C.

    Then again I have successful keyboard friends who play everything in C and let the transpose button do the rest.
    But we are straying far from A# and Bb. Sorry.

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    A double flat (bb) notation is sometimes used to indicate a full diminished chord, no?Anyone?
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    bb and ## are used in classical music but you rarely see them in a jazz, pop or "other" context.

    In theory, we call a Cdim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 but spell it C Eb Gb A (rather than Bbb which, let's face it, is just gnarly to read!)
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    I've always felt that Bb has a much sadder sound than an A#...

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    Yes, because the B is drooping. The A would be raising it's head, which is a prouder sound.

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    Everyone wants to be called "a sharp" one, but noone wants to "be flat".

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    By the way, if you play just temperament instruments, as Apk said, there is a big difference; A# is noticeably sharper than Bb. I play Baroque flute, and there are different fingerings for some of these notes, others you have to "bend" up or down depending on context. Mandolin players have it easy!
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    According to Robert Fulghum, refrigerators hum in B-flat. "The electrical motor of the refrigerator gives off a sixty-cycle B-flat hum, as do all motors that run on 120-volt AC current. The washing machine, dryer, electric heater, blender, hair dryer, coffeepot, and all the rest are B-flat appliances."

    Not sure what good this is to anybody, unless someone wants to write a "Symphony for mandolin and major appliances"

    BTW, I find that double flats are much less of a problem since the advent of tubeless tyres. At least, you can usually reach home.

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    as Walter stated....
    For example in a "Flat" key like F the notes are
    F G A Bb C D E F

    It would not be
    F G A A# C D E F

    as you would be missing the "B" in the scale. And you would not have 2 "A"s in the scale.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by (mandohack @ Nov. 10 2006, 11:28)
    I've always felt that Bb has a much sadder sound than an A#...

    But D minor is the saddest of all keys.
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    Actually I think A flat minor is sadder than Dm. Seriously dramatic movie stuff.

    Dm tunes, like Besame Mucho have a kind of inspiring theme, but Abm is heart wrenching!
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    According to Robert Fulghum, refrigerators hum in B-flat. "The electrical motor of the refrigerator gives off a sixty-cycle B-flat hum, as do all motors that run on 120-volt AC current. The washing machine, dryer, electric heater, blender, hair dryer, coffeepot, and all the rest are B-flat appliances."
    I thought I was going absolutely crazy!! I'm so relieved someone else noticed this (I have perfect pitch so I tend to notice almost anytime something produces a recognizable tone).

    FWIW the eight-note A# major scale would be A#, B#, Cx, D#, E#, Fx, Gx, A# - but you wouldn't ever use double sharps ("x") or double flats ("bb") in a key signature. Most often when double sharps pop up it's either when a song goes into a secondary dominant from a key with many sharps, or to create a leading tone in a minor key where the 7th scale degree is already sharp (ie D# minor - the leading tone is Cx). This, like Tom C said, is to follow the rule that there is only one note per letter name in each scale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    A#, B#, Cx, D#, E#, Fx, Gx, A# -
    Only a pervert and/or Hindemith would write that as something other than Bb. theory or not
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