Poll: adirondack or englemann?

[Rick Crenshaw]

I know what I like best as I've heard side by side Adi/Englmn comparisons by three different makers. But I wonder if I have enough of a 'mature' ear to really know what I'll like best in the long run? I was primarily a guitar player for years and have played mandolin only about three and a half years. I know my tastes have matured greatly in that amount of time... so is there a typical phase of mando tone appreciation that experienced mandolin afficianados go through?

At any rate, I'd love to hear your vote if you have years of experience and lots of mando tastings under your belt.

BTW... I like the pop and ring of Adirondack.

[Scotti Adams]

Ive played both by the same maker..in fact quite a few..I give Englemann the upperhand..at least to my ears and what I like in sound. Its just better right off the bench in all aspects. But..Ive grown more partial to my mando with the 100yr old Fir top..

[red7flag]

As I understand, red spruce takes longer to open up, so if you are comparing new instruments, the Englemannn might will have an advantage that might reverse over time. Just a thought.
Tony

[Chris Biorkman]

I was also curious as to the answer to this post. I am having Andrew Mowry build an F style mandolin for me, and I am really torn between adirondack and englemann. I have heard that there is a significant difference in the amount of time that it takes for the two tops to open up, but what is the difference in tone in an instrument that has been broken in?

[Brady Smith]

Ive grown more partial to my mando with the 100yr old Fir top.

I bet them PETA nuts don't like you and your fir top too much.

[troika]

I'm currently dueling two really nice mandolins; one being a Collings blonde MF5 with an AD top and finished with laquer, the other a Sim Daley Vintage with an englemann top and varnish finish. So different yet so nice. Someone send me their Gil:p

[jaco]

Wasn't red spruce (AD) what was used for all the Loars?

[JAK]

I've been told a number of times that you can "drive" red spruce harder (use more force) to get a louder sound. That may be more appropriate if you are playing in a band or a jam so that your mando can be heard. Of course if you are in a band with a sound system you can turn the volume up on the instrument mike if you have an Englemann top. It works for Chris Thile (Englemann top on his Dude).

[first string]

Wasn't red spruce (AD) what was used for all the Loars?

I'm one hundred percent sure that they all have red tops, but certainly most of them do, which I would guess is the reason for AD's enduring popularity. Personally I prefer Engelmann, and I don't really believe that it will somehow fail to mature in comparison to red.

I went through some serious agonizing over which I wanted, but then I realized that I was ignoring my ears just because red is the traditional choice. Now I have an Engelmann topped mando that I'm very happy with.

Of course some will argue that it's impossible to make generalizations...But I think there is some truth them in this case, even if one happens upon the occasional exception.

[first string]

I've been told a number of times that you can "drive" red spruce harder (use more force) to get a louder sound. #That may be more appropriate if you are playing in a band or a jam so that your mando can be heard. #Of course if you are in a band with a sound system you can turn the volume up on the instrument mike if you have an Englemann top. #It works for Chris Thile (Englemann top on his Dude).

I don’t think it’s louder, so much as grittier (for lack of a better word). Engelmann seems to me to have a cleaner, more bell-like tone, vs. red which is probably a bit “woodier,” once broken in. The volume probably has more to do with other factors.

I think the consensus seems to be that CT’s mando is quieter and needs the amplification because of the extremely low action.

I could be wrong about all this. After all I’m not a luthier.

[Jonathan Peck]

I think the consensus seems to be that CT’s mando is quieter and needs the amplification because of the extremely low action.

I'm not so sure about this. I've seen Chris tear into that Dude when playing rhythm. He can play as loud as anyone when he wants to. Having seen him play in different situations, I don't know if I could say for sure that his Dude is quiet by any means. I would agree that he has low action and plays with a light touch for the most part, but I don't know if that would translate into generalizations about his mandolin being quieter IMHO.

Just curious, has anyone here played the Dude that can comment? I'll ask Michael next week when I see him. Michael has commented to me several times that he sounds ridiculous on Chris's mandolin, and Chris on his. Two players with completely different styles, approaches and set-ups.

-jonathan

[first string]

I think the consensus seems to be that CT’s mando is quieter and needs the amplification because of the extremely low action.

I'm not so sure about this. I've seen Chris tear into that Dude when playing rhythm. He can play as loud as anyone when he wants to. Having seen him play in different situations, I don't know if I could say for sure that his Dude is quiet by any means. I would agree that he has low action and plays with a light touch for the most part, but I don't know if that would translate into generalizations about his mandolin being quieter IMHO.

Just curious, has anyone here played the Dude that can comment? I'll ask Michael next week when I see him. Michael has commented to me several times that he sounds ridiculous on Chris's mandolin, and Chris on his. Two players with completely different styles, approaches and set-ups.

-jonathan

Well you’re probably right. I mean quiet is a relative term. But he does say on his Homspun DVD that the lower action costs him some volume, but that it is still a worthwhile tradeoff. And on the Bluegrass Journey film (that is currently being picked apart in another thread) when he plays with Tim O’Brien and Ronnie McCoury, his playing mando sounds a little quieter. Though that could have to do with mic placement, so who can say. One way or the other, it doesn’t really seem to matter. If you can get great tone without straining, volume seems pretty unimportant in this day and age.

[Spruce]

I can show you ten mixed samples of Red and Engelmann spruce, and there's no way that anyone (including R. Bruce Hoadley) would be able to positively ID any of them....

Draw your own conclusions....

[Jonathan Peck]

From theGoodall Guitars webpage

Engelmann Spruce:
Slightly less strength than sitka and generally softer, but some pieces can be quite stiff and strong. Creamy white color, less pronounced winter growth lines, and generally good silking. Beautiful, rich, sensitive tone frequently recommended for fingerstyle and light flatpicking. Good bass, slightly less midrange brightness than Sitka, with a brilliant overtone harmonic structure. I feel opposed to using medium gauge strings, at least with the softer pieces as I think over time it can be detrimental to tone.


Red Spruce:
Red spruce, also known as Adirondack or Appalachian spruce, was used by wood-frame airplane builders early in the century because of its high strength-to-weight ratio. Some of the tops exhibit very high stiffness both with and across the grain. Red Spruce is better known for its tonal qualities than its appearance. Master grade tops look similar to Engelmann spruce being a creamy white color but exhibit very little silking (medullary rays) and rarely approach the beauty or the fine or even grain of Sitka or Engelmann spruce. Some tops have slight discoloration but because few red spruce trees are of guitar top size or quality this is perfectly acceptable. We find the tone of red spruce loud and powerful with a focused, punchy bass. Many flatpick guitarists find this to be a choice topwood.

[Spruce]

"I can show you ten mixed samples of Red and Engelmann spruce, and there's no way that anyone (including R. Bruce Hoadley) would be able to positively ID any of them...."

OK, so I'll add Mr. Goodall to the list too....

[Jonathan Peck]

That's very funny...maybe true even #Anyways, I e-mailed the question into Fine Woodworking. If I get a response I'll post it. I've also got an old e-mail adress for Chris Schwarz of Popular Woodworking. I'll give that one a try to...who knows, it could still be curent. Most likely though, he's just going to think I've totally lost it

Prediction - If I get an answer, it's probably going to be something like...grain, appearance..and so on. I think what you're saying is that if you laid out ten pieces of engelmann and ten pieces of red on the bench...that no-one would be able to tell the difference. Theory -vs- practice

-jonathan

[G_Smolt]

I have matched pair, built at the same time. The engelmann is here at home, the red is out on loan. Though I like them both, the Engelmann-topped suits my playing style better...or something. It is easier to coax good tone from it than from the red-top.
While both are somewhat prone to the "sleep" of the unplayed mando, the Engelmann "wakes up" much quicker than the Red.

Having said that, some of my friends prefer the red to the engelmann, from the "business side" of the picture.

Oh well. Best solution is to just be like Greg Fisher and collect one of all the spruce family.

[Spruce]

"Prediction - If I get an answer, it's probably going to be something like...grain, appearance..and so on."

If you do, they're full of it....

Why don't you take the opinion of folks who might know?

Here's a quote from Mr. Hoadley:

"The woods of red spruce (Picea rubens), white spruce (P. glauca) and black spruce (P. mariana) are usually designated simply as eastern spruce because they cannot be separated from one another. #In fact, they are similar to Engelmann spruce (P. engelmannii), which is often grouped with eastern spruce under the designation 'transcontinental spruce'.

[David Houchens]

Spruce, This is slightly off topic, but I purchased a couple sitka bass top sets from you several years ago and have yet to make room to build a bass. This was fairly wide grained sitka. I realy like the sound of wide grain adirondack. Would the wide grained sitka be similar if carved to the same stiffness? I also still have some of the seasoaked tight grained sitka from you. That is on one of, if not the best sounding mandolin I've built. Thanks for some great wood. Bryce

[Red Englemann]

I can show you ten mixed samples of Red and Engelmann spruce, and there's no way that anyone (including R. Bruce Hoadley) would be able to positively ID any of them....

Spruce, you are probably right, but I think distinguishing between Red/Englemann and Sitka might be more obvious..maybe not.

Anyway, why make a choice, get one of each.

Red

[Spruce]

"Would the wide grained sitka be similar if carved to the same stiffness?"

It's really hard to judge wood based on appearance, which, after all, grain count is...
I've seen Red Spruce with 4 GPI that was as stiff as any spruce I've ever milled, so go figure...

"...but I think distinguishing between Red/Englemann and Sitka might be more obvious..maybe not. "

Well, Sitka is the one spruce that is ID-able under varnish using a 30x hand-lens...

Again, Hoadley:

"Sitka spruce (P. sitchensis) is different in several ways from the transcontinental spruces. #Sitka spruce has a coarser texture and larger resin canals than the transcontinental spruces, which sometimes causes it to be confused with the pines. Microscopically, on tangential sections, the ray cells in Sitka are rounded or squarish, whereas in other spruces the ray cells in tangential view appear oval or elongated in the grain direction. #Large bordered pits are commonly paired on the radial walls of earlywood tracheids, in contrast to the usually single pitting in other spruces".

All that dendrological mumbo-jumbo translates to this: #With a hand-lens and some known samples of spruce species, one can begin to pick Sitka out from the transcontinental spruces, even under varnish.

But I've yet to run into anyone who could positively differentiate between the non-Sitka spruce species, even when presented with bite-size samples that they could chew, smell, and taste.

And forgetaboutit under varnish.... # #

[Red Englemann]

Well, Sitka is the one spruce that is ID-able under varnish using a 30x hand-lens...

I was speaking of tonal differances between the species, not visual.

My luthier friend had a peice of Sitka approx 1 inch thick and it reminded me of sponge material vs the more solid Red texture. I have always associated Englemann somewhere in the middle.

red

[jasona]

Now that we have Bruce going about transcontinental spruce, I should bring up the issue of European varieties...

[Stephen Perry]

This is nicely reassuring - if I didn't label the incoming wood I'd have no really clear idea what the spruce is! Let alone how it will work in violins. A friend of mine with a number of medals appears to simply pick the lightest stuff. But I made a series of violins from "red spruce" tops that were quite dense (probably were red spruce - came from the Smokies near here - but who really knows?) and they were excellent, although more in the fiddle line. They sold instantly, so something good was happening.

How about the Asian spruces? I figure they're probably the same thing as we have. Can anyone really tell the European spruces? I have some European tops and some Colorado Engelmann tops I really can't tell apart!

[Red Englemann]

But I made a series of violins from "red spruce" tops that were quite dense (probably were red spruce - came from the Smokies near here - but who really knows?)

THere are only two sources for Smoky's Red Spruce since harvesting of that wood is prohibited except for this one time event. Most Red that Martin uses comes from Maine and W. Virgina.

Where did those fiddles end up, I would like to try one out.

Red