Kay mandolins

[Jim Nollman]

here's the back

[David M.]

I have always believed that the birds-eye maple back and sides are solid. Is there a benign way to test it?

Any way to look inside to see if the birdeyes inside match the ones outside?

[Jim Nollman]

well, yah, that's the reason i thought the sides were solid. they do seem to match up front and back. I can't be sure, but it lookls to me as if they do. But another poster on this site seemed to suggest with some authority that Kay never made a solid wood instrument during that period. So if mine is solid wood, does it mean it was built as a custom instrument, or that the other poster was flapping his jaws? Too bad, there's no real way to trace these models like collectors do with Gibsons, Vegas, Lyon and healey, martins, etc.

[Jim Garber]

I think that the confusing thing is the catalog description code. Nowadays, when catalogs describe a ply instrument, they say for instance, mahogany back whereas if it were solid they mention solid mahogany back, etc. Back in the 1960s or before there was no such understanding. I think you just had to guess or know.

The best way is to do as David M. says.

I am not so sure sure that even in the 1950s the upper end Kays could have been ply and may have been solid.

Jim

[Paul Hostetter]

Jim's right - don't ask, don't tell. Millions of Kalamazoo Gibsons had ply backs and no one knew.

I have never seen a Kay that wasn't plywood. Having inside and outside plies that visually match is pretty common. You have to look elsewhere on the sintrument to be sure. Peel the binding under the tailpiece to check the top, endpin hole to check the sides, etc.

[Jim Nollman]

Excellent suggestion, Paul. I had noticed a tiny piece of binding starting to unravel, and took a closer look. The bottom is three-ply. The two face-pieces are birds-eye maple, the core is something darker, probably mahogany, and also half the thickness of the maple.

The side is the same laminate.

[Paul Hostetter]

And I assume the makeup of the top is evident at the edges of the soundholes.

Eventually you develop the ability to just look at a piece of wood and tell if it's laminated - it usually just lacks the translucency of solid wood. But I still check as much as possible, because I have been fooled. The guesswork is often augmented by a knowledge of the manufacturer.

[Jim Nollman]

The top doesn't look to be more than 1/8th inch thick. It reminds me of an instrument maker's version of the new sawdust lams made for construction. It is very hard, pressed to appear carved, and has no warp at all anywhere.

One importnat thing about the good Kays. When I'm playing in a jam setting with 8 or 10 other acoustic players, I can easily cut through, both with chop or fast tremelo. To achieve the best tone while doing so, I tend to hold the instrument sideways like a dobro, so neither the top nor bottom touches my body. The instrument vibrates like it might explode. Occasionally I play a solid maple and spruce instrument, and this one is neither as loud, nor does it have such good tone as the loudness increases if i play it this way. I consider this capability one of the best things about my Kay. I have never played a high end mandolin. But i have played Breedloves, and I'll take the tone and chop of my Kay — at full volume — any day. Then again, I admit i am not a bluegrass player.

The above sounds like a ringing testimonial of a chevy over a volvo.

[Jim Nollman]

http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/images...olins/M169.htm

Here's one that being sold by a reputable dealer, specifcially being advertised as solid wood. The top looks like maple.

[Paul Hostetter]

Trust me, it's laminated. Every layer of the ply is solid wood, under the spray-painted fake curl.

What makes you regard Pamela's as "reputable?" Would you buy a mandolin from either of these people?

[Martin Jonas]

I haven't had any direct dealings with Pamela's, but just from keeping an eye on the inventory and prices at their website over a few years, I would consider them enthusiastic, with a wild mixture of interesting and boring-to-dismal instruments at generally reasonable-to-cheap prices, but with little evidence of any particular expertise at least when it comes to mandolins. I recognise several of their current line-up from recent Ebay auctions, at quite similar prices, and with no evidence of any repairs or setup work having been done.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This unusual Kay Kraft with embossed Eagle just appeared on ebay Germany.

Jim

[Paul Hostetter]

My comment about Pamela's was tongue in cheek, and I completely agree with your assessment of their, um, wares. Cruising the companion site of the other babe, all their bands (We're a do-all duo! We're a rock band! We're a Morris Team! We're a New England barn dance band! We groom dogs!) and their flea market mentality crack me up. And they do seem to sport a marvelous freedom from fact. The Isetta photo says it all, to me. We thought old hippies were only in America?

[Jim Garber]

Completely off-topic: That Isetta -- wasn't that that tiny Italian car with the entry door in the front. Strange!

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Despite the Italian name, the Isetta was actually a BMW model. #There were quite a few of these odd superminis in Germany shortly after the war: Messerschmitt for example adapted their cockpit designs for fighter planes to make the Kabinenroller, which looked stranger still.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Great stuff, Martin. And I love those Kabinenrollers.

... and now, back to our regular programming.

Jim

[Jim Nollman]

Paul, with your classical mandolin experience, i am curious if you have ever played one of the French Gelas models made with a two-piece top, with the angle facing inward like a partially folded jackknife. The design is the opposite of an old Martin which has the angle facing upward. They look fascinating to me. I found a history of the style, which mentions that have always been favored by classical players.

[Jim Garber]

Paul, with your classical mandolin experience, i am curious if you have ever played one of the French Gelas models made with a two-piece top, with the angle facing inward like a partially folded jackknife. The design is the opposite of an old Martin which has the angle facing upward. They look fascinating to me. I found a history of the style, which mentions that have always been favored by classical players.

Jim is referring to this thread on the Gélas mandolin.

Jim

[Paul Hostetter]

Seems as though we oughtta continue the Gélas conversation over there, non?

[brunello97]

Despite the Italian name, the Isetta was actually a BMW model. There were quite a few of these odd superminis in Germany shortly after the war: Messerschmitt for example adapted their cockpit designs for fighter planes to make the Kabinenroller, which looked stranger still.

Martin

Ah, so the SmartCar didn't come out of thin air...

Mick

[Ted Eschliman]

No financial interest: 1928 blonde Kay/Stromberg Model 68 available at topshelfmusic.com in Buffalo, NY:

[Jim Nollman]

I have my Kay, and don't want another one, since there's certainly no market established for collecting them. It is interesting to me, that if you start browsing the websites of the many mandolin builders on the cafe, you see lots of Gibson copies, a small share of Lyon and Healy copies, a few Vega copies, more than a few innovative mandolins that copy old European jazz guitar shapes, but no Kay copies.

Is there anyone out there building a copy of a Kay? I love the big sound of mine, certainly accentuated by the 2.5 inch deep body. I think it could be worthwhile to use it as the template for a mandolin made with high end materials. Maybe that will be a good future project for me.

[Hans]

One of thes days...

[Bill Snyder]

Certainly not a copy but I think that the Breedlove mandolins appear to be inspired by the Kay mandolins.

[Jim Garber]

Many years ago, in WV, I took a mandolin class with Jethro Burns and one of the participants had a very nice handmade Kay Kraft copy with koa back and sides. I have been looking for the group picture we took of that class but have not been able to find it. I can't recall the name of the maker but it may have been a one-off by someone who no longer builds.

Jim