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Thread: Machined instruments

  1. #26

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    You can even graduate with the cnc.

  2. #27
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    When Orville Gibson was building mandolins there was no factory. He was building them in his room above a shoe store. His machines were likely a few hand tools that were workable for him. He sold the company in 1902 and never did any more than consult after that time.

    I should also correct a few other comments. First, he never followed Henry Ford. He was out of the business and not involved by the time Henry Ford produced his first assembly line.

    Whether he made the comments about machining and what he meant I have no idea. It is true though, that none of the "hand builders" could work without some degree of machinery. Whether it is electric, air power, hydraulic, or just arm power is another issue. They can still be hand built. Use of proper tools does not negate the hand building, just allows one the opportunity to do the job a bit quicker and more accurate.

    I cannot speak about any other factory, but ours uses just as much hand work as any of the smaller builders. In fact, some of them have more machinery than we do. A machine used properly is an asset to everyone. However, machinery poorly used hurts the process and actually slows it down producing an inferior product.
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Sometimes we forget that the the intended purpose is to make MUSIC!
    We can't forget either, that the purpose of music is for our enjoyment, both in the playing and in the listening. Imagine this same argument, taking machines and making music with them. CD players! Record players, iPods. Now imagine that no one needed the musicians anymore. How'd ya feel if no one went to see the live shows? If everyone just wanted the most bang for their buck, music as a carnal drug, nothing more. No more people behind the music, no more talent in the field, no more personality. That's all kinda my point...... It's not just about making mandolins, it's not just about making music; it's history, it's tradition, and it's people.

    ...again, I don't think it'll happen. But that's the parallel...




  4. #29
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    Is there not a middle ground? A big one? I frankly don't believe any builder who intends to make it his main/ whole income producing occupation could do without as much technology as he could afford. And there is something that's not been talked about here. If you're going to make a living at this, which does make a number of people happy because they are getting instruments made with a human touch, the builder has to make a living wage. I know of few builders, if any, that are making big bucks building instruments. If those builders don't make a living wage, they won't be around. Period. And I'm sure that no matter how much tech stuff small builders use, there's still lot's of hours spent doing things by hand. Look at the end product. I'd think you'd be able to see the touch of a hand. And listen. You can hear the difference. Yes, CNC machines can do graduations. But I don't think many small builders take it to that extent. They still do the last most crucial stuff by hand and ear.

  5. #30

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    You're right, I did take that to an extreme. And maybe it's kinda silly, because yes indeed, we as small luthiers all have our individual touch.
    So where's the argument again? hehe. I dunno. All's I know is I want to continue a lifetime of work that I feel is valuable, and not have that taken away because of being outdated and inefficient. Something valued by others too, and not looked down as superfluous, or slow and inefficient even when it is.
    And this craft is in slight danger. I'll always love to go to old Williamsburg and watch them make barrels by hand with kid-like wonder. Seeing people passionate about little things like that makes me happy, but how many of thosee people can make barrels and be asked question by little kids about the old days? Hand-building will perhaps be reduced one day to something like that.. A sort of side-show, look at him carving with, what's that thing called he's holding. Ah yes, a chisel.

    It scares me, so I take my stand from the only place I know... right here.

    Cheers, I think that's all I can add.....

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by (OldTymer @ Feb. 05 2007, 17:27)
    Quote Originally Posted by
    Sometimes we forget that the the intended purpose is to make MUSIC!
    We can't forget either, that the purpose of music is for our enjoyment, both in the playing and in the listening. Imagine this same argument, taking machines and making music with them. CD players! Record players, iPods. Now imagine that no one needed the musicians anymore. [snip]

    That's all kinda my point...... It's not just about making mandolins, it's not just about making music; it's history, it's tradition, and it's people.

    ...again, I don't think it'll happen. But that's the parallel...
    And lets not forget the machinery for -making- music; should we return to those halcyon days of yore when a recording studio was a portable master cutter? I hope the answer is a resounding "No!"

    Having spent some time in analog studios in the early 70's (The Church) and digital ones (Scarab Studios) recently, for ease of use and degree of polish I'll take the latter, and purity of sound, the former. Try to cure a drum track that loses time in an otherwise perfect session with an analog rig.

    Let's not forget the luthier who's trying to make a living, either. I've done the Roy Underhill method and the Norm Abrams method... I like them both, but without relying on the panache of "Ah din't use no power tools making this here jug" there's no way I could make a living making instruments with hand tools alone. (And I learned a LOT more about working wood without power than I ever did with it.)

    Those guys make the decisions that keep them in business; if it's CNC carving or a duplicating router, fine! If it's gouges and sharkskin, ultra fine! The only barely possible objection I might be able to raise is that the vibration of machinery -might- effect the sound of the completed instrument.

    For them, the goal is the journey of making the best instrument they can at a price they can sell them for; for us, it's the destination of an instrument we like at a price we can pay.

    How much more would you pay for a Dudenbostel that wasn't roughed out on a CNC, and all the inlay routs were carved with knives and chisels? Why shouldn't he save his hands-on time for tasks he can do better than any machine?

  7. #32
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    Quote: ErikAitch -- The only barely possible objection I might be able to raise is that the vibration of machinery -might- effect the sound of the completed instrument.


    This is a very interesting statement. I'd love to hear what the resident luthiers have to say about it.

  8. #33
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    Suggested reading pertinent to this thread: "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" by David Pye. The author gives us a language with which to discuss and understand our (hand) work.
    Also by Pye, "The Nature and Aesthetics of Design."
    ~Bill~
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  9. #34
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    I appreciate very much the window into the craniums of you that build. Thanks for taking this thread seriously and not cluttering it up.

    There is no doubt that a certain level of mechanical means are necessary for the build. Perhaps my interpretation of the intitial quote is not that Orville wanted CNC's; of course there wasn't anything quite so sophisticated in those days, (heck we're talking Horizontal lathes and Cutmaster Vertical Turrent lathes then), but I wanted to touch on the subject of "hand tooling" incorporated with mechanization, to see if I could see more clearly where the lines are drawn.

    As I look around for "plans" and read about "tooling" it helps to know what CAN be achieved by hand, with only clamps, files, and sandpaper, and a hand jigsaw and glue.

    Thanks to one and all for a very intelligent and useful thread of contributions.

    -Soupy1957



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  10. #35
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    The vibrations of the wood by machinery is likely to have little to no effect on the instrument. The wood is exposed to vibrations of every type all the time. Every time you take your mandolin in the car it is exposed to the vibrations of the road and the engine. It is exposed to the vibrations of the aircraft overhead and the wind blowing. It is exposed to the television and radio and cd player. What about the beat of your heart or movement of your lungs as you hold the instrument? All these give far more vibrations than the tools used in woodworking and they only seem to affect it in a positive way...if at all.

    An even more interesting question is the difference in tone from wood that is scraped vs. wood that is sanded to its final level. Some think the grain ends from sanding could be affected in a different manner from those scraped. While this is a pretty esoterical issue, it is likely more of an issue than the vibrations of the machinery itself.

    Machinery is not the "devil" in woodworking and neither is the absence of machinery. Just as a chisel is a tool, so is a bandsaw or router or cnc. Whether machinging can be taken to an extreme is another argument. Neither side is wrong. Whatever it takes to make the instrument you like and enjoy. If you fall in love with it, does it matter what was used in the manufacturing process? At Gibson we use a pretty minimal amount of machinery compared to many builders, and it works well for us. Would we be better with more tooling? No. Just different. Some of the other builders do a lot more machine work. Would less machining make them better? No. Just different. I'm thankful there is a choice in all these issues for all us mando nuts!
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

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    If its the playing of the instrument that makes it sound better, then you need all the vibration you could get right, or is there bad vibration. say someone really knows how to play as to someone that cant, but each play all the time, so now why cant someone set up a jig to play automatically, say for a year or so before its sold, would that make it more meaty. or is this just off the wall, my 2 cents,

  12. #37
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Billbows,
    Thanks for the reading suggestions.
    Bill
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  13. #38
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    Darryl, if you search, you'll find some threads showing machines that people have rigged up to do exactly that... vibrate the instrument, strum it, etc. for a while to break it in and open it up more quickly. While it does not seem to have caught on as a standard practice, it is not unheard of...
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  14. #39

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    ..maybe teach a mandolin to play too... Make a soundproof box, hook up a Bose inside there with the mandolin in question, have Uncommon Ritual play on repeat for a week or two, hope the braces don't come loose.

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    thanks otterly, I didnt know that, also the bose might just work, but I play daily so mine gets lots of play. Its a 96 F5L and has been played lots since new, and I have yet to hear another Gibson that sounds as good, even dd models. but I havent played a Loar yet either, my 2 cents

  16. #41
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    Billbows- great pointer. Those two books were early reads for me when I got into the woodworking business. I still have them, I think, unless they were lost in my "flood" a couple years ago. Another great read in this area is The Unknown Craftsman. It talks about, if I recall correctly, Korean potters from centuries ago who made pottery for daily utilitarian use and did not sign them. Some of the forms these folks made have an earthiness that is incredible. And we don't know who made them. I guess that's what they wanted. Or perhaps they didn't care. I'd like to think the former. In any case, it's a great book with much food for thought.

    I would also agree with Big Joe, that I don't think the vibration involved in the machining processes involved in making an instrument of any type (cnc, router for binding, hammering on it with a chisel) has a detrimental effect. Perhaps the opposite, but I have no scientific data to refer to and I doubt that one could.




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    I couldn't agree with Ken more.I do with my hands better work than what I just saw on several factory mandos(at Loarfest) that are more money than what I charge.Why should a factory mando cost $25,000? With that said I did see a new Monteleone last week that I would commit serious crimes to own.I heard that it was $40,000 and worth EVERY penny.I've been to Monteleone's workshop about 10 years ago........no CNC there that I saw.Not sure if he's doing anything different now but he has great hand skills. At Loar fest I heard a Gibson employee say that there's not a mandolin that they make that is made entirely by one person,everyone has their task(to operate the equipment)then it gets passed to the next person up the line. Simply a Henry Ford situation. The assembly line was created so that most every American could afford a car.This type of making doesn't produce the best instruments available therefore they should be less expensive.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Kentuckyken @ Feb. 05 2007, 17:15)
    You can even graduate with the cnc.
    Hmm, I only graduated with a BS...

  19. #44
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    I hesitate to jump in, but I totally agree in principal. But, I think that when you have a corporation as large as say Gibson for example, that you also have a much larger overhead to factor in than say a small shop...as well as stock holders who need to see growth in their shares, marketing, lawyers, sales, accounting, maintenance etc....

    I wonder if Gibson can even say for certain how much it costs to produce one single mandolin because there are so many other factors to consider that must be included in the cost of that one mandolin.
    And now for today's weather....sunny, with a chance of legs

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    I don't think Loars are the best mandos available. I'd take a Gil or Monte,and a few others well before a Loar.

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    I don't want anyone to think that I think machine work is necessarily better or more sophisticated than hand work. Quite the contrary. Much hand work is far more sophisticated and artful than machine work. I just think that machine work can have its place. As I said before, the luthiers I know that use cnc and such are still doing the final graduations by hand, etc. I doubt that many luthiers, whether doing it as a hobby or profession, full time or significant time, cut their binding ledges without using something with a motor attached for at least part of it. I don't think this takes away from the instruments' quality. We certainly don't make our own binding (plastic), nor tuning machines, nor fret wire. If Gil hired an assistant or two, and who knows if he hasn't, to help him with the mundane tasks such as gluing in kerfing, e.g., would we think the instruments less valuable? I'd think we would find it a wise decision, allowing him to use his time where his true talents could be used to their best.
    I would think that we would judge an instrument's value by the end result. There is often much difference between a PacRim instrument and the highest quality ones being made today by "small" luthiers, or some "companies" here. Of course, there is a market that is special for luthiers' work that is made in a small shop, perhaps especially if we know the entire thing was made by the same person (except for the binding, tuners, tailpiece, fretwire). I don't know where one "draws the line". The market will decide the value on one hand, IMHO. The market will also decide collectability. And it will probably decide desirablility, regardless of collectablility or resale value. Or maybe they all merge into one big thing. I just think it's a big muddled area with many factors involved. For a builder, if you can't make a living.... Just thinking outloud.




  22. #47

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    Gary said,"This type of making doesn't produce the best instruments available therefore they should be less expensive."

    I don't agree. I don't think that there is anyway for someone to tell, by sound or sight, whether a finished instrument top or back was roughed out using a CNC. If you look at the most respected, and most knowledgeable mandolin builders, I doubt you will find any that don't use some sort of mechanical means to rough out their instruments. Many of which are using CNC.
    I also think its an insult, to such builders, to insinuate that their instrument is inferior, and should be priced less, because of their methodology.

  23. #48
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    I am only refering to the assembly line type of construction. Tom Ellis has posted his system for routing the binding channel and honestly I'm very jealous. But he also finishes things by hand. His prices are half of a MM Gibson.The people who should be insulted are the ones who have bought overpriced factory(assembly line) instruments when the could have purchased something from a single builder who can build circles around any factory operation.Did anyone see and play Toms mando at Loarfest??? I did!

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    Testore and Capn Crunch...you would be surprised to know that we use less equipment on our instruments than most shops. We have about four to five people that work in mandolin production. Each does a particular set of jobs, but not usually a mandolin from start to finish. Some of the team are quite capable of doing everything, and it is good to have those guys. However, it is a waste of their talent to have them doing menial tasks like sanding that a person with less skills can do. Finish is another specialty that not all are good at and some do not wish to be exposed to the chemicals. If you think we are some large factory sticking wood into a machine and a mandolin pops out the other side, you would be greatly surprised by the way our operatio works. No assembly line and no factory looking line. Just a few work benches where the guys do what they do. The work is done right in front of the whole world. You can watch them work all day if you chose. Our operation is quite small and all our banjos, mandolins, and dobros are built in a retail store with just a few employees. Those who see them work are always surprised there is no assembly line and so few employees building instruments. Again, it is not much different than most small shops with just a few more employees.

    Oh...Gibson knows exactly what it cost to build a mandolin. We could not stay in business very long if we did not know that. Before we build anything we know what our cost will be and whether it is a potentially viable product.
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  25. #50

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    The points which bother me the most about this issue is that folks will tell others what they can and can't do with thier own tools and processes. #I find that very egotistical. Lets just give eachother the benefit of the doubt and if we have to judge, we should judge based on the finished product. Very nice mandolins have come out of one person shops using minimalist tooling, equally nice mandolins have come from multi-person shops using advanced tooling. #To make the case that there is one right way to build mandolins is beyond credulity, especially if you assert that that the one way is YOUR way.




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