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Thread: Revoicing morgan monroe

  1. #26
    Registered User Rick Crenshaw's Avatar
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    If you get used to playing really nice mandolins, it becomes hard to play and hear much else. No insult intended here since the MM is not a fair comparison to a bench built mandolin (Daley, Bentrup, Ludewig, Heiden, Brock, Hamlett, etc.), but the BEST MM I ever played could stand revoicing work. Sorry... that's the way I see it. They may be worth every penny, but they are not going to match top of the heap instruments. Though they may be able to get much closer with some real attention.
    Rick in Memphis

  2. #27
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    I would like to say that the original intention of installing a magnetic pickup would also have been a good idea. I've found that instruments that are thick and heavy, with little acoustic value, tend to make good electric instruments, with lots of sustain and few feedback problems.

  3. #28
    Registered User buddyellis's Avatar
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    Yea, alot of people who make an electric mando put a p'up in there, and then fill the inside up with that canned poly foam.

  4. #29
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    Thanks for the feedback, guys.
    Since there seems to be some interest in this thread, I'll try to clarify a couple of things.

    I was hyperbolizing when I said the instrument was "completely unplayable". I had to reposition the bridge. Somewhere along the line the bridge got knocked out of position, leaving a nice dent deep enough to separate the finish from the top. The bridge feet were not fitted to the top. Looks like they just took it out of the box and plunked it down. The bridge was canted forward at about a 20 degree angle. G strings were so close together that they jangled against one another, even with a light pick attack.
    I fitted the bridge the conventional way. (Professional luthiers may not want to read further.)After the bridge was adapted as close as possible, I laid down a piece of aluminum foil where the bridge sits. Then I put a thin layer of epoxy on the feet and position it for correct intonation and tension the strings. The excess epoxy oozes out and is trimmed flush with the sides of the feet. The foil peels off cleanly, and now the bridge fits the top exactly. The epoxy is no thicker than a coat of finish.

    Then the nut had to be removed and lowered A LOT. Of course, now there were lots of buzzy frets because they had never been levelled and dressed.
    The instrument was described as having a cast brass tailpiece with engraving, but I got a stamped steel job that produces weird overtones unless you damp it with the heel of your hand.
    So now three days have passed and I finally get the mando playing smoothly. At this point, I wouldn't consider the instrument modified. Now, I could pay something like eighty bucks for shipping both ways for the privelege of setting up the instrument. I realize that correct setup is somewhat subjective, but I found the experience pretty disappointing. I wrote a respectful letter to the shop stating as much, and somehow I hadn't received my cash discount. About two weeks later, I received an invoice for a store credit for the difference, but no acknowledgement of my letter. I played the mandolin for a year, and realized that it was never going to have any volume. I saw a mandolin at the same shop that I was interested in. I E-mailed them and asked if they would take my mandolin in partial trade. No response. Tried again. No response. I realize they are in business to make money and I don't expect them to subsidize my mistake. I could pay cash for the mandolin if they didn't want to trade, but that seems like another mistake at this point. This is when I decided to cut my losses and salvage the Morgan Monroe. It seems we are bombarded by so much bull$#!+ that it becomes acceptable after awhile.

    I decided to keep the mandolin because there were a lot of things I liked about it. At the time the plan was to install a floating pickup- jazz guitar style, so I really didn't worry about the thick top.

    I guess the point of the post was to adress anyone out there who has a similar mandolin and wants it to sound better. I figure if you have enough dexterity to play mandolin, you could accomplish this project with patience and some basic tools. I'm not really worried about modifying the instrument and besmirching it's integrity, as I doubt it will ever have any value to a collecter.

    I also find it curious as to why they couldn't set up a CNC mill to produce correctly graduated tops. They wouldn't be perfect, but you could get them pretty close, and then tweak the tone by trimming the tonebars.

    After I get a Monteleone tailpiece, I'll install the $1.79 piezo soundboard pickup with 1/4" endpin jack. You can get the parts at radio shack, and when run through a preamp sounds fine. If anyone is interested, I can take pics and write instructions. It's an invisible installation and is easily reversible.

    Best Regards,
    Kurt

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by (mercenarymandolinist @ Feb. 25 2007, 08:44)
    If anyone is interested, I can take pics and write instructions. It's an invisible installation and is easily reversible.
    That might be very interesting for folks that normally aren't into the electrotransmorgification of mandolins. In fact, I've got one in the early stages that I'd thought about electrifying and was trying to decide where to start. It seems that electric options for them aren't exactly overrunning the place..

    I'm fairly sure such a thread would draw some interest.

    Ron
    My wife says I don't pay enough attention to what she says....
    (Or something like that...)

  6. #31
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    I just ran out to Radio Shack, and sure enough - piezos. At $1.99, picked one up. Should be interesting. I am hoping my Baggs DI can make up any deficiencies.

  7. #32
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Alrighty - Anyone up for installing their own piezo? I wired the Radio Shack version up and tested it on the outside of my TC zouk with very impressive results. #You have to remove the plastic cover to get at the element inside, but that's the hard part. #I was surprised. #Here's a page that tells how: http://web.mit.edu/kumpf/www/Acoustics/main.html

    edit: Plus, this thread is interesting, particularly at the very end where a guy is wiring up orchestral instruments for sound, presumably with the Radio Shack variety, getting great results. #One option is to wire several within your instrument to capture more of the body: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-7805.html




  8. #33
    Registered User buddyellis's Avatar
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    I've toyed with the idea of designing some piezo film pickups. Those radio shack piezos will work. These sorts of things would work much better.

    One thing to keep in mind, you need to have any piezo plugged into a high impedance preamp (1megohm or greater, preferably somewhere in the 10meg range) and keep as short of distance between the p'up and the preamp as possible, and shielded. Heck, a simple FET buffer similar to what condensor mics use would work fine, I'd guess.

    I'm not sure what would sound better in a mando: whether under a bridge foot, or just a general top sensor (or both, or else perhaps enbedded in the bridge somehow, but I'd fear an under-bridge sensor might be tinny (nature of the instrument).




  9. #34
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    "Morgan Monroe" is a) the name of a state forest very near my home; b) a combination of the names of the two counties that surround the forest; c) and, in this line of instruments, I assume it's a reference to the musical traditions of the area, including proximity to the one-time home of Bill Monroe.

    Sometimes, when folks are doing a lot of talking about this line of instruments, I'd swear I can see the forest blush in embarassment.

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  10. #35
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    I have often wondered who selects the names for imported lines of instruments. I'm sure that no one named "Michael Kelly" has much to do with building those that bear the name, although I did have one person ask me in all seriousness if this were the name of an Irish luthier. Generic names like "Rogue" and "Rover" don't bother me as much as ones that have a calculated American, and more specifically, Southern American content: "Morgan Monroe," "Kentucky," "Blue Ridge," "Old Hickory," "Flint Hill," "Galveston." "Shenandoah," etc. Then there are the "quality" nameplates: "Gold Tone," "Gold Star," and such. And of course the Celtic inference of "Trinity College."

    I speculated about "Eastman"; certainly there's the Far Eastern reference, but I also thought about the Eastman School of Music, here in Rochester, and the fact that Eastman Instruments started by producing violins and orchestral instruments.

    But of course my pet peeve is the annexation of defunct American nameplates, associated with home-built instruments for many years: "Regal," "Harmony," "Washburn," "Epiphone" etc. And now Guild as well? Somehow, I'm more comfortable with straightforward Asian nameplates, "Yamaha," "Takamine," "Suzuki" and so forth. Puts the cards on the table, at least for me.
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  11. #36
    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
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    I get a personal thrill observing the nuances of the "branding" game. That the Pac Rim builders adopt these folklorish handles is a credit to their marketing prowess, not a manifestation of any kind of evil, IMHO. "Morgan Monroe," "Old Hickory," "Kentucky," "Micahel Kelly," it all makes me chuckle.

    It certainly wouldn't be hard to come up with a wrong name to brand these instruments and make them unmarketable. Think of mistakes that could have been made in other industries; would you buy bottled water with a brand, "Tijuana Springs?"
    Ted Eschliman

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    Michael and Kelly are the first names of the owner's kids.

  13. #38
    Registered User Steve Perry's Avatar
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    allenhopkins sez...

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I have often wondered who selects the names for imported lines of instruments.
    I propose a poll...

    The person who came up with the name "Johnson" for a line of instruments.

    Clueless or... #Smarta**?

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  14. #39
    Registered User otterly2k's Avatar
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    Reminds me of the problems that Chevrolet had marketing their Nova to Spanish speaking countries...

    No va
    meaning... it doesn't go

    oops
    Karen Escovitz
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    And the there's "The Loar" by the producers of the Johnson and Recording King lines. Somehow I imagine that cashing in on Gibson's reputation and brand recognition is less than of the highest ethics.

    That makes me sad. I'm sure they're decent instruments, and I'd hope that the Japanese red spruce topped $5500 custom shop mandolin lives up to the Loar name, but somehow I'd want Lloyd to give his implicit approval to its use. If they got approval from the Loar family, they sure aren't saying so on their website.

  16. #41
    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    "Recording King"... that name has some history...

    I -believe- that the folks who begat the company "Morgan Monroe" are Americans, based right here in Indiana, and who market a number of lines of Asian-built instruments that bear American names. "Indiana Guitars" is one of their lines, and the guitars, similar to the Rover F-mandolins, are often surprisingly good, at surprisingly low cost. Just now I don't recall the names of the other product lines, but somehow... I can always recognize 'em.

    I need to limit myself in any discussions of the use of the name "Johnson". I was adopted at birth and thus got the use of it.
    My dad, who came by it with the full package of genetic material (a Swedish 2nd-generation American) used to say that the
    original Adam's name was Johnson, but that he had to give it up when he was kicked out of Eden. (ahem...)

    We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

    stv
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  17. #42
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    I have installed a few of these Piezo pickups and I find the best spot is slightly aft of the treble foot of the bridge, sort of where a violin soundpost would be. I find that clear silicone caulking works well to transfer the vibrations and it can be peeled off without blemishing anything. I place it on the inside of the mandolin by way of the F hole and hold it in place with masking tape until the silicone sets.
    While at Radio shack, you can pick up a 1/4" female connecter that you can use for an endpin jack. Just unscrew it from the plastic housing and use the plastic nut so your strap won't slip off.

  18. #43
    Registered User johnhgayjr's Avatar
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    Based on your description of the construction, this might be an appropriate tool to use to "adjust" this mandolin and perhaps to produce an attitude adjustment from the seller:


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  20. #45
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    Hey mercenary - I just did the piezo like you said, only on a TC zouk. It works way better than I could have imagined. Like on page 3 over here on this other thread. Sound clip over there as well.

  21. #46
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    I read the Randy Wood article in this thread and thought it was useful. I spotted a lot of SEVEN broken mandolins on eBay for $150 including shipping and bought them. Four were Johnson F-styles, two were other F-styles, and one a pancake. They must have been in a boiling hot shipping container with the strings under tension or something, because most had unglued tone bars and some had neck joints that had melted and shifted. I figured they would give me good practice for sawing open backs, and I could reglue the tone bars, reglue the necks, and GIVE THEM away to people who exhibit a slight interest in learning to play the mandolin. (I gave one to one of my sons and two guitarists in his band.) I found that the StewMac fret saw with a .010 kerf (full back support) worked very well for doing most of the cutting along the binding, though because of the back support it couldn't reach everywhere. I switched to the StewMac flush cutting saw to cut where the other saw couldn't and to cut through the point blocks, tail block, and neck block (I forgot about Randy Wood saying to heat the back off the neck block).

    Surprise! I knew these mandolins were made of plywood, but I didn't expect them to be nailed together! Yup, rather than being clamped together, they are nailed with brad guns. The back was glued, then one brad each in the point blocks and tail block and four brads into the neck block. The nails significantly dulled the saw, of course. Also, I discovered that the scroll is beefed up with plastic shims, then the plywood is glued and nailed over them to get the carved look. Cutting through the scroll in a need way proved to be very difficult. Making a straight cut through the neck block with a very flexible saw was not made easier by hitting nails, and the saw easily bent. I've ruined three saws, alas, at about $10 each. I think I need a Sawzall for this.

    The neck reset was also a surprise. I've done one so far. There was such a big gap in the back that I didn't bother to remove the 15th fret to drill and get in the steam. I simply ran it in from the back! Worked fine. But it turns out that before the fretboards are attached, the necks are glued, positioned, then again nailed in place with four brads. The neck used a dovetail joint that was rustic but fit pretty well, but the neck doesn't slide down over the sides, but right against the neck block. The sides only come up to the neck block, and not too closely. The gaps (1/8") are filled with white putty. The paint covers the nail holes and putty.

    So I've finished three mandolins, with decent setups, bone nuts, good action, etc., and given them away. One of the plywood tops had actually cracked. I thought the tone bars would hold it, as it popped back into shape when the strings were loosened, but they didn't. It collapsed again in a few days. Alas. Good learning experience. They don't sound tooooo bad for a plywood instrument, but I've purchased solid-top Chinese mandolins for $100 that sound a lot better, and of course they don't sound like much compared to my good mandolins. But good action is the main thing for beginners.

    Thanks to those who contributed to this thread.

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