Can we have a real beginner's project?

[Harrmob]

Tim-
This is from Craig's original post:
"as i'm seeking some inspiration to learn a new song, i was wondering if any non-professional players would be interested in picking a tune that we all don't know and spending a few weeks to learn it together? "

The word beginner is not in it, BUT, I think those just starting off would benefit greatly from this, more so than those that have been playing for a while. Although I am not a beginner, I learned a few songs from it (I am CERTAINLY a "non-professional") and it was fun. You, Kelly_guy and others have a point. This is a great tool for beginners to learn new songs and push them at a month long pace to get it down, and share their accomplishment with fellow mandolin maniacs. I already know Fishers Hornpipe which is a hard song and took me forever to learn(assuming it wins the poll) so I won't post mine next month (plus it will never sound like Josh P). But, if there is one picked again that I don't know and have never played, it is going to be hard to resist not learning it, feeling good about it and wanting to share. But since it is the beginners we want to encourage, regardless of the intent of the MP, maybe you all are right. There is a lot more work involved as a beginner to learn this stuff than someone that has been playing for 5 years and although it is fun to listen to some of the polished stuff, I would rather hear the beginner's accomplishments and encourage them to learn new songs.

[Kelly_guy]

Harrmbob--

I was wondering for a moment if I'd completely misread Craig's original post, which you quoted. So I went and found it. Um, the title of the thread is "calling all beginners". So yeah, I assumed it was a beginner's project.

Reading through the MP page, it's not at all apparent that MP is a beginner's project.

So I guess this is what I'm asking for--a beginner's project. Whether it be MP or a new project, that's simply what I'm hoping for. I think it's really cool that there are other songs being posted, the Misc Musings songs are fantastic. But yeah, hearing a professional-quality recording of Sally Goodin as the first recording of the project...whoa.

[Harrmob]

I totally stand corrected, I read the thread w/o reading the title.

[Mike Buesseler]

I guess this issue will get settled with or without my input, but I still want to pipe in a point or two. #

One of the things you will be told by any good instructor and in most good instruction books is, listen to and play with people who are better than you are. #So, for that purpose, I really like hearing somewhat better versions of the tunes than my own.

As for the really professional sounding ones...I guess I agree with Kelly. #I can hear them on CDs. #

Having said that, I don't think Benignus's first version of Sally Goodin is the same as a "professional" version. #Same goes for his Cherokee Shuffle. # He has a great recording setup and dynamite skills. #But, #everything I've heard from him has been playable, if not with the same quality and polish, at least I can pull useful ideas from him.

I guess this just points out the difficulty in segregating this group. #Defining the 'professionals' ain't so easy. #

How about reposting some guidelines, much like Craig's original stuff, and see what happens from here on? #The vast majority of what I've heard is very useful to me, and I am certainly one of those perennial beginners.

I'll concede that it is a tough balancing act. #I used to play golf a lot and I wanted to play with better players so I could learn. #At least for myself, I also wanted to play with people only a little better so I wouldn't feel completely out of place and so I wouldn't slow them down. #Me playing against Tiger Woods would not be fun for either of us. #

[Brian Ray]

I would suggest that the criteria for joining the group is that you want to learn a tune... period.

I discovered this group a bit late, near the end of the Sally Goodin month. I never saw Craig's original post that started the group. I saw folks learning a tune together. What a fantastic use of technology and what a fantastic idea. I wanted to join in.

I'm a bit puzzled with the way this thread is going but it has a valid point... I think it makes sense to offer up a basic TEF of the tune. It would also make sense to choose tunes that make sense for the group. I think latter is accomplished via the vote and as Craig mentioned, feel free to suggest some tunes.

Thankfully, there is ALWAYS someone better than yourself. If you're lucky enough to have access to them, ask them questions; get help; get advice.

[Brian Ray]

Tim,

Your Tiger Woods analogy is a good one and I agree with it as far as playing together live. Much like at a jam, players will gravitate to like-skilled players. In this case though, I think it does not apply. My recordings are not holding you back nor are anyone elses holding me back.

I would not play golf with Tiger Woods but if there was a way that I could show him my game, get some help/pointers/advice/etc..., hell yes I would. What I would certainly NOT do, is tell him that he's too good to view my swing. Is he intimidating? Hell yes... but I'm not gonna improve by watching Charles Barkley's game! Plus, I'm better looking than Tiger... so it all works out in the end.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Well said, Tim!!
I don't really think the tunes are bad choices, but since this started out as a beginner's project, the versions should be beginners versions. You, Craig, say they aren't too hard, but in fact, I've played for 7 years and I think they are very difficult (Cattle in the cane is ok but the posted version of Sally was very advanced). I'm not a good player even after 7 years, due to lack of time to practice, but I'm not on beginners level either. I would like this group to go on, because I think it's great with all the feedback, and it has really increased my motivation, but with some modifications. First of all that the posted versions are very simple. Basic stuff. No double stops, minors, or variations way up the neck. Bluegrass standards generally are very simple, so post the basic versions. There are beginners who don't know where to look for basic versions. The advanced players can make up their own version if they want some more challenge.

Btw, it's great to see you back, Craig!!! I've missed you!

[Coy Wylie]

Craig,

Whatever happens don't get discouraged by the comments in this thread. Your ideas and creativity here have been invaluable. I really appreciate you. I read on another thread where you are about to begin a job working 80 hours per week. Just finding time to practice your mando will be enough of a challenge without trying to please everyone here.

If you need some help, several of us would be glad help where we can.

[Martin Jonas]

Posting basic versions isn't so easy if we're sticking with TEF: somebody has to prepare the file. #Because of the vast number of files on Co-Mando, Craig has so far been able to use their files. #If there is a feeling that the Co-Mando files are too advanced, then that source would be cut off and it's a question of either looking around for more basic ready-made settings or making your own. #Just copying out a beginner's arrangement from a tunebook or a tutor isn't an option: these are copyrighted. #It's fine for any MP members to put these versions up if they happen to have the tutor; it's not fine for us to scan or tabledit them and put them on the web (quite apart from the amount of work that is needed to tabledit even a simple tune, which is clearly unreasonable to expect Craig to do).

There are some good, basic arrangements freely available on the web (I'm a big fan of Nigel Gatherer's site), but it's not as comprehensive as Co-Mando. For example, here is a nice Cherokee Shuffle.

Having said this, I don't think the Co-Mando versions of Sally Goodin and Cherokee Shuffle were too intimidating. #The Sally Goodin arrangement in particular was pretty ideal for us, I thought, in that it had the easy version at the beginning to get started on and then became progressively more difficult in the variations. #Depending on skill level and confidence, that gave us the option of picking and choosing which parts to play: the tune works just fine with only one or two variations. #In the event, I think there were only one or two of us who recorded the full Co-Mando version, everybody else chose to either just play the easier bits of that version or to go for a completely different version altogether. #CS on the whole, I thought, was an easier arrangement (although I took longer getting a feel for the proper rhythm), but with less obvious scope for homemade simplification.

I think part of the impression that the recorded versions were too slick or advanced comes from the fact that most of them were double-tracked with either guitar or mandolin chop chords underneath the tune. #Having a solid underlying rhythm like that transforms any bluegrass dance tune, but can't be reproduced by yourself when practising. #That may give the impression that the playing on the MP3 is more fancy than it actually is, especially if there is a third overdubbed track with vocals. #Overdubbing like that is an acquired skill, but has little to do with mandolin playing and more to do with being comfortable with playing in the relatively abstract context of a recording studio, even if it's an improvised one in your study.

Speaking for myself, I have been challenged by both Sally Goodin and Cherokee Shuffle (neither of which I had played before) and gradually found a way of playing them after a fashion. #I haven't got around to recording CS yet (maybe this weekend) but I've put up my version of SG with just a single melody track, no double stops, no up-the-neck playing, no rhythm overdubbing. #That's largely because rhythm playing, ANY sort of rhythm playing, is still a complete mystery to me -- unlike some I've not come to the mandolin from the guitar and I haven't got the first idea of how to listen out for the right chord changes. #I've also put up four slower tunes in the Misc section, again all single melody tracks. #To put this into perspective, a year ago I had never touched any sort of musical instrument -- the mandolin is my introduction to playing music and I've been pursuing it pretty intensively over the past 11 months or so. #I've never played on a stage, never taken lessons and the only two other mandolin players I know (both at about my level) don't live locally so I hardly ever get to play with them. #So, I think it's fair to say that I'm a beginner and as I'm self-taught and practise on my own, I really appreciate this virtual support group.

So, although I know that there are many here with much better playing ability than me, I feel happy with the tunes and the way the MP is working out. #I wouldn't mind having a few non-bluegrass tunes to vote for, but then I can't complain because I, like most others, haven't given Craig any suggestions for other tunes to put to the vote -- I probably should propose a few, maybe a couple of O'Carolan tunes.

Maybe one way of avoiding intimidating arrangements would be to have a link to the proposed TEF file for each tune in the voting section. #This way, everybody can see what they're letting themselves in for and if you don't think you'd be motivated to tackle that particular arrangement, don't vote for that tune. For next month for example, we can get a beginner's tune by voting for Bonaparte's Retreat and playing Nigel Gatherer's version, which isn't very difficult.

Sorry for the longwindedness, but the essence of it is that I don't think there's too much wrong with the setup as it is and that I'm grateful to Craig for that.

Martin

In lots of situations we benefit from the efforts on volunteers. I generally have little tolerance for people who don't volunteer, reap the benefits and complain. #At the same time, constructive criticism should be welcomed. #How to balance those two principles is the trick and if I strayed too far off center in this thread I apologize..

I didn't mean to offend anyone, especially the ones doing the work without compensation. #I was motivated to post by the response to valid suggestions which really boiled down to "get over it".

[Bluegrasstjej]

I didn't mean either to offend anyone, and I can't express enough what a great idea this is. But the fact is that there are beginners who don't feel comfortable in the project because the level is too high. There isn't much support for beginners online, more or less everything is for intermediates or advanced players. Something is needed for beginners. And then I don't mean folks who played the guitar for 30 years and can learn the mandolin in 2 weeks because of the guitar skills, I mean real beginners. Folks who never touched a stringed instrument before.
I agree with whoever said that he was happy to play with someone who is just a little bit better than he is, but really advanced players make him feel that there is no way he can reach that far. That's exactly how I feel and why I don't join in at the regular jam not too far from where I live. I jam happily with some Danish and Dutch folks at the festival in Gränna though. They are better than me but not too much. I still feel I have something to give and add to the jam. This is very important to me. Now this isn't a jam, and this was actually a side track.

What I really wanted to say was that I love this project and it gives me good challenge (even though I don't use the posted version, I use another one or make up my own) and motivation (especially for recording! more for recording than for learning the tune...I must say). But if it's not possible to find easier versions of the tunes, maybe it shouldn't be called a beginners project.

[Brian Ray]

This thread has served a purpose. It is clear that this is an issue and an effort should be made to keep it at a moderate level.

Learning fiddle tunes can not only be enjoyable but is an essential way to become a better player. This is really why we are here after all. I don't see how a "beginner" group could ever work. What happens when the "beginner" gets a little too good? Do you reward them by asking them to leave?

The benefit of learning as a group can also be it's detriment. There will always be difference of opinions. In addition, participating in this project takes not only mandolin skills but also computer and recording skills. I'm sure folks are struggling with these as well.

The group is here to help... just ask.

[craig]

i have created a couple new polls in the Yahoo!Groups in order to get a better idea what the majority of people think the issues are. please vote in order to provide some objective feedback. additionally, i would appreciate any ideas for other polls that should be there in order to optimize feedback.

cheers,

craig

[Bluegrasstjej]

You have a good point there. My idea would be that the beginners group start out as a beginners group and that the beginners go on to intermediate level as time passes, but that there would always be resources for beginners. I can see potential problems with that, though, just as you point out.
However, I don't want to complain anymore. It seems that this thread isn't really getting anywhere anyway.
If it's a big problem to find basic tabs of our tunes, I could actually make them. Probably not in Tabledit, because I've tried and it's just hopeless unless someone can teach me and explain how to change all the weird standard settings. I use a software called Power Tab Editor, that is much better, except it doesn't show the timing stems in the tab system, only in music notation. But you can download the software for free and listen to the tune in midi format, and get the timing that way.
What do you think?
Has anyone checked out www.jaybuckey.com? There are lots of tunes there, most in music notation though, but they are simple and basic. Unfortunately I can't find Cattle in the cane.

[harwilli55]

Hi Craig et al;

I have been gone the past week and am just seeing this discussion for the first time.

A couple of things to think about. In study after study conducted about learning, the overwhelming evidence shows that group learning far and away creates the most succesful learning.

What the group supports reflects the values of the group. Groups that recognizes and rewards achievement of all of its most vulnerable members is rewarded with usually close to 100% participation and is a group that grows.

Groups that have become competitive, become dysfunctional with resentments, low participation, and high per centage of complaining.

Those results are true all around the world in every size group from family groups, to businesses, to organizations, and including governments and nations.

There are tendencies in every group for cliques to form because people naturally gravitate to those they feel most comfortable with. Cliques within a group often create competition and comparison. (ie..when I post a recording, who responds enthusiastically or is there a response, same for posting a request or message in the forum) Do I feel as included and responded too as others.

All people new to playing are intimidated. When a group as a whole responds to the newest members slightest attempt to reach out, that sets the tone for those who might be fearful and even more intimated. Fear of rejection along with fear of failure are two of the most powerful emotions connected with beginners. A group that has its members aware of this, ready to recognize and respond to the beginners needs creates a warm safe environment where progress is not about competition but about feeling supported no matter how badly I screw up.

Out of my intial fear of how I would be percieved when recording Sally Goodn, I used vocals and guitar back-up so I would not feel so naked and out there. I realize that I set a precedence doing that because, not every one can do that, and so would feel that much more naked and vulerable posting a recording.

One of the things, I would suggest perhaps, is to limit the recording of the song of the month, since we are focused on the mandolin, to a simple recording without embellisments or added tracks, bare bones so to speak. Any one who wants to post a backed up version could submit that version to Miscellaneous.

The other suggestion, is for all the members. Remember how good it feels to have everyone tell you how good they felt about your recording, make sure that you download and are as enthusiastic about all other recordings just as quickly as you were responded too. If you have experience, and see someone reaching out who seems intimidated, respond to them, take the time to post replies and be inclusive. I include the need for me to be as aware of that as anyone.

Craig, your work was done because you created the idea and participate with so much enthusiasm and engergy. It is up to the rest of us to make sure that this group feels welcoming, safe, and rewards any who desire to participate with warm, enthusiastic support and replies.

Sincerely,

Harlan

[Don Christy]

I've been away from the group for a while and am just now getting to this thread.

I am a true beginner.

Yes the songs have been a stretch.
Yes Benig's first recording was intimidating

But I decided - so what. I'm going to try and learn to play them and learn to record them. It was a real thrill to get feedback on Sally G. This group has been so supportive that my confidence has really increased.

I wouldn't want to see any real changes (other than maybe a posting of a simpler version of songs). If not for this group, I would hardly ever practice my rhythm chops and certainly wouldn't have learned to make multi-track recordings on my computer.

Speaking as a TRUE BEGINNER, I REALLY like this group.

Thanks Craig and everyone who participates.
Don

[carolynbeth]

I'll echo ducati's and some others' comments -- this project was a bit intimidating at first. That said, I'm glad I forced myself to post my attempts anyway. I may not play anywhere near as well as some of the other "beginners" in this group, but I do enjoy listening to their versions and have tried to learn/borrow some of their techniques....

I just think this is such a wonderful idea and project -- #it's forced me to stretch myself with more challenging tunes than I would normally choose, and given me a great incentive to actually focus on and learn a specific tune -- rather than working on 3 or 4 tunes at once and learning none of them very well...

Anyway, this has all been said in previous posts -- sorry for being repetitive -- but many thanks to Craig for all his efforts and patience.

Carolyn

[Jaded]

I put up a post and then decided to delete it after listening to the Cattle in the Cane recordings that are up so far.

Since the majority of the people actually participating in this project seem happy with it, I don't reckon it needs to be changed for them, but I definately think a different approach would be nice for the large number of people who signed up but have never posted a recording.

It could be a lot of them are just happy with lurking, but I think there are a lot of people who just don't see a point in posting their efforts when there are people putting up stuff that I personally wouldn't even classify as intermediate.

I really enjoyed listening to the cattle in the cane recordings, I think they sound wonderful and I like hearing the different takes and I think it would be great if all the mandolin players in the cafe had a forum to post their versions of recordings for us to listen to.

However, they don't fit with what my idea of a "beginner's project" would be. I personally would prefer to have a seperate area for beginners recordings. Not to classify people into good, better and best, but because I'm looking for totally different things from a beginners recording than from a recording far beyond my abilities and I just would prefer not having to wade through one to get to the other.

I think it would be very cool to have as many people as want to post recordings that are whatever level for people to listen to and learn from, but I also think it would be nice to have a place where beginners aren't having to put there recording up next to stuff that is if not professional quality at least far, far more advanced.

[Bluegrasstjej]

You have many points, Harlan. I have also experienced this group - advanced or beginners - as very supportive to everyone, which I appreciate a lot and that's why I've sticked with this although it sometimes feels way advanced.
I like the idea of not using other instruments in the recordings. Actually, it's mostly the flashy guitar and bass back-ups that makes the recordings sound professional, I think.

I like your input and your idea too, Jaded, the beginner recordings wouldn't need to be on a separate group, it could just be as a separate group of recordings on the MP site, that way our group wouldn't be separated. Even if there are beginners who are happy with it as it is, I wouldn't want to chase away other beginners who feel intimidated and don't want to post because of the level of the recordings, if simple things could be done to avoid that.

[Michael H Geimer]

I'm in a quandry now. I have finshed my CinC, but am hesitant to post an Mp3.

I actually did post it right after I was done. But, I took right back down after reading Jaded's comment above. How could I leave something up after reading about another version being taken down because it's author didn't feel it 'meadured up' to the current submissions. I thought that posting my version might give validation to the comment that the project has been "co-opted by intermediates".

While I'm not about to accept personal responibility for any feeling "intimidated", it is clear that people are backing away from this project because they feel there are judgements being made on the comparable quality of the submissions. (I would like to add that "intimidation" is probably not the best term, as I'm certain no one has posted MP3's with any intention of making another member feel bad, or timid, etc. "Intimidate" by defination implies action designed to make someone else feel intimidated.)

On the other hand - I've been named as someone who's recordings have discouraged others from participating. While I'm certainly not offened, it has hurt my feelings a little. No one ever likes feeling unwelcome.

My first thought was that I could limit my particiation to The Home Game. That is, I could 'play along' with the tune of the month, but just not post. That's a personal compromise that hopefully will allow me to continue my learning without discouraging others. It would also insulate me from any self-concious ideas that I'm being viewed as a 'show off' by the group.

Well ... something came up in the CinC thread, and in I admitted to being done with my version. Harrmob, and Dasspunk chimed in encouraging me to post ... and here I am back in this thread ... wondering aloud about how best to behave.

[Kelly_guy]

Benignus, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with my comment. It's not fair at all for me to turn my clutziness and inexperience into bad feelings for others. I think you should post your version.

The fact is, some people are naturals at this. I'm not. I still enjoy playing, and I was just trying to be honest about the fact that I did feel intimidated by some of the other recordings. Is that your problem? No, of course not. It's nobody's problem but mine.

I was hoping that this thread would lead to some honest discussions of what the goals of this project are. It seems to have done that, at least. And it doesn't seem like very many others share my reticence about posting tunes. Well, judging from the poll, at least.

Only 19 out of 172 members of the Yahoo group have taken the poll, and only 2 besides myself, of those 19, say that they feel intimidated. Yet more proof that it's really mostly my problem!

Again, sorry for the bad feelings. You're a talented player, and I'd like to hear your version of the tune. I want this project to continue, and I'm willing to work to help it continue. I'll do what I can to help transcribe new versions of tunes to TablEdit versions, and post them for the group.

And I'll post my version in the next few days. I doubt I can go any faster than 70 bpm, but hey, that's what I can do at this stage of the game!

Cheers,

Kelly

[Harrmob]

After seeing only a couple CITC posted, it has shed some light on whether or not to post if you feel you are not a beginner, for me at least. #One thing that I wish someone taught me when I was first learning to play, was how to....step up to the plate. #Whether on the internet or a jam. #I stayed in the corner of many jams and just chopped, now I wish I would have at least given it a shot, that is how you learn, the nervousness of how you might sound takes a while to get used to and now it is apparent the internet has become another useful tool. Has nothing to do with playing, it's all in your head. #We are all mando maniacs, regardless of how advanced, and we are all learning the song. #Thats my "current" opinion.

[Michael H Geimer]

Thank you Kelly_Guy.

You were the one I was personally hoping would reply. I am not offended, nor was I ever ... I'm just also a self-concious person ... many artists seem to share that trait.

I have not viewed the poll, nor would I really base my opinions on such a device. Neither, was I going to take advice from Harrmob, Dasspunk, or any of the other players offering these more challenging versions. I needed to hear it from you - the original poster - #to feel reassured about the situation.

I also heartily agree with Harrmob about 'stepping up to the plate'. That's why teachers insist their students perform at recitals. Playing for an audience - virtual or otherwise - is a critical ingredient to musical improvement. Believe it or not, most audiences are not at all critical ... they don't care when you slip up on a note. They would only get upset if you were to stop playing.

What does that tell you?

Thanks again ... I'll post when I get home.

So .. does this mean we can all keep pickin' together?

- Benig

[Brian Ray]

I'll add this...

I think I was in 6th grade and playing saxophone in band. We had a concert and I was to be a soloist. My first! I was scared to death. The band was playing, it came time for my solo, I stood up in front everyone; looked out onto a sea of parent's smiling faces; took a deep breath and... blew the nastiest screech you've ever heard. The entire place erupted in laughter... lol... I stuck to it though, finished it out and quickly sat back down.

It takes guts... a lot of 'em, to put yourself out there. Looking back my debut still makes me laugh... but I never worried about making mistakes in public again.

Jump on in, the water is fine...