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Thread: Can we have a real beginner's project?

  1. #51

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    Just to make it clear to Ben, I did not take down or avoid putting up a recording because of being "intimidated", I wrote a post that i later revised somewhat after listening to the current crop of recordings.

    I haven't posted recordings lately, because I just haven't really felt like working on the songs. I am not personally intimidated by anyone's recording. I pick in jams several times every week with professional musicians and if I know the song I'll take a break when offered with no reservation.

    I just think that since there are large numbers of people who are not posting recordings for whatever reason, that maybe some alternative would be nice for that group of people.

    I enjoy listening to everyone's recordings, it is just my personal feeling that the project no longer really feels like a beginner's project.

    However, the main reason I have not really been participating is that i'm not that interested in learning the songs.

  2. #52
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    Reading through some of the posts on this thread there is a sense of frustration and an over competitive atmosphere. So I thought I'd add my own 2 cents.
    You sometimes hear even advanced professional musicians saying that they feel they are still just beginning. It's the idea that the more you know, the more you realise how much there is to know. There is no end to it. So what's a beginners project? The way I see it, we're all beginners - if we are here firstly to learn. No matter where you are with your instrument there will always be other individuals who have taken it further than you. It is human nature to compare ourselves with others and learning an instrument is at times a humiliating experience. But at the end of the day it's only your own pride that's getting hurt. Be the best YOU can be - what else is there? I mentioned in another thread recently that I actually considered not buying my first mando after having watched Chris Thile on video. I thought what's the point of starting to learn a new instrument at the age of 41? What a dumb attitude! I'll never be anywhere near Chris Thile, but I've decided to have as much fun with this great little instrument as I can and give it my best shot. And you know what - it feels good to be a real beginner!

  3. #53
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    If everyone who has more to learn is a beginner, than everyone is a beginner and the word has no meaning.

    There is a difference between sometimes feeling like a beginner as you struggle with a concept that is more advanced than what you know and truely being a beginner.




  4. #54

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    Don't worry about it, Benignus. Post your version, at least I would love to hear it. After this discussion it doesn't seem like the active members mind, really, and that we shouldn't change anything here.

    Kelly: I know you are not alone. I'm in contact with another member too who do not participate because of the level and I think there are more of them. There are several members at the project who have never posted or added any recordings. I'm not sure but I think at least some of them might be beginners who just don't think they are "good enough" or however I can explain it. And they won't come back in any case.

    I think most of us realize that this is an intermediate project. We're having fun and we're happy with it as it is. Some beginners are confident enough to participate even if the level is a bit high, and that is great. I don't like to leave others out, but it seems that there's nothing to do to improve the situation here for those who feel they can't make it because of the level. I was hoping this discussion would result in some kind of change so that everyone would feel comfortable, but it didn't, and we have to respect that.

    I'm working on a website for beginners. Something like our project, but for beginners who feel our tunes are too difficult and who don't want to post beside professionals. It's not to steal members - it's for those who don't participate at our project for any of the expressed reasons, so that there is something for them. Learning together like this is such a good thing. I know that if I had been a true beginner I wouldn't have participated in this project. Now after some years I can feel the tunes are difficult but a challenge that makes me have to work hard, which is good for me.
    I want to help beginners in some way and will try it by offering this workshop.
    I don't think it's about dividing people in "bad and good" pickers, it's all about people's preferences. Those who don't mind, participate here, and those who feel the level is too high, participate elsewhere, where the level is lower.
    I don't want to offend anyone, and I certainly won't stop participating here. I just want to help the beginners who have left this project.

    If anyone is interested, you can e-mail me at bluegrasstjej@yahoo.se.

    I really don't want the great pickers to stop posting their tunes!! It's wonderful to listen to your stuff, please continue to let us hear it.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Tim-n-VA @ May 21 2004, 05:02)
    If everyone who has more to learn is a beginner, than everyone is a beginner and the word has no meaning.

    There is a difference between sometimes feeling like a beginner as you struggle with a concept that is more advanced than what you know and truely being a beginner.
    Like you say If everyone who has more to learn is a beginner, then everyone is a beginner.. This is a perfectly logical and meaningful statement.

    And all beginners struggle with a concept that is more advanced than what you know

    I really don't see the problem.

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    I joined the project last night and after listening to all of the versions of CITC and Sally Goodin I was so inspired that I sat down and learned Sally Goodin. Thanks guys.

    I don't think that anyone should be intimidated by listening to players who they feel are better players. Even though it is natural to compare one's skills with others, this observation shouldn't discourage them from participating. I have to admit that there are some very good performances (non-beginner?) posted but even the ones that were a bit shaky or played slowly were an inspiration to me. I like the fact that all of the people contributing are involved in shareing music and musical ideas.

    I hope this project continues to grow.

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    Jaded,
    Thanks for clearing that up. I obviously misread your post.

  8. #58
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    Tjej, starting a new group is your prerogative, though I disagree with the decision... but I wonder if you've thought it through. Would your group be posting here to talk, ask questions, announce postings? If so, it may get confusing, not to mention that there will be little difference between posting to that group or to this one (just different servers). If not, will there be enough support for the folks? I wonder...

    I appreciate Kelly_guy for starting this thread and all others who have joined in. It seems there may be "others" that we could serve better even though they do not seem to have the courage to even post to this thread themselves.

    I would like to once again encourage ALL folks regardless of "level" to join in and learn a tune. I'm not sure how else I can say it... This is an exhibition not a competition... please no wagering.

    Not for nothing, the only posts I've read that have made people feel uncomfortable or unwanted in this group have come from "beginners". The so called "advanced" folks have been nothing but supportive and encouraging.

  9. #59

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    The thing isn't up yet, Dasspunk, still on development and thinking level. I'm just working on it. As I had planned it, there would be different forums to talk.
    Enough support...I've been thinking a lot about that. I don't think there would be a problem. When you just start out, you don't really wonder about some complicated crosspicking style or how to do this and that cool lick. Also, it's not supposed to be a place to get instant answers of questions. It's for learning simple tunes together.
    I knew people would object, and I don't like needing to do it. First I was thinking just a resource site, with tabs , exercises (such as scales and things like that), chord charts, useful links for newbies and I would post slow versions of basic tunes so that folks would get an idea of how they sound like. I didn't want to compete with this project and I still don't like to do that.

    I would prefer having more resources for newbies on the mandolin on this project. Personally I don't mind posting my tunes along with very advanced ones (it just sounds like that sometimes!), as long as there are others at my level too, which has been the case at least with Sally Goodin and cherokee shuffle.
    I know y'all are good folks as most pickers are and would help out if the newbies would have the courage to join in. The question is how to make them join in. I gave up this discussion for a while because there seemed to be so much disagreement on having easier tabs. I still hold on to my opinion though. If the tunes are basic (and then I mean REALLY basic, with only 8th notes and quarter notes and no triplets or double stops), the beginners could learn them without feeling it's way beyond their abilities. I would like to have the level of the tunes at the very basics, because then we can say this project is for everyone. If you have never played an instrument in your whole life, buy a mandolin and start learning it, you can't play things like the Sally Goodin version we played and most certainly you can't improvise either. The level of the tunes should be at the very lowest.
    I think the best thing could be if there was one easy tab and one more advanced tab. If just the tabs and tunes are easy enough, I think with some support the beginners wouldn't hesitate to post their tunes with everyone else.

    I know there are beginners who like it as it is, but I also know there are beginners who don't. Couldn't we just do something to make them want to join? It wouldn't be more strange than simply providing easier versions of the tunes.
    Craig said there aren't any easier tabs around on the internet, but I'm not so sure. Can't we all go out chasing for them? Wouldn't it be great if the very beginning beginners could join in this group too?

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    I totally agree. There are obvious benefits to the project in searching out and offering the easiest versions we can collectively locate. It is the most objective way we can make this more accessible to everyone.

  11. #61

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    I just went to the Yahoo group and looked at the polls. Craig has set up a poll asking what the reason is folks haven't put up any recordings. The most common reason is problems with recording, and other reasons. Then many have also answered that it's too intimidating (I don't like that word either) and not enough time to practice. Noone has said the tunes are too difficult (but I know at least one who does think so). Only 20 people have voted, though, and one of them is me (just so that I could see the results).

    Maybe it would be good with some recording tutorial on the main page. I know many of you are very good at recording, know Audacity very well, can give good advice and help out.

    Let's go out and look for easy tabs on Fisher's hornpipe! That's a start. I really would like this to get back to being a beginner's project. Even if there's only one who thinks the tunes are too difficult, I think it's worth it!




  12. #62
    Registered User Brian Ray's Avatar
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    I'm with you Tjej,

    I think we all agree that finding basic TEFs of the tunes is the thing to do and none of us want to leave folks behind that don't want to be left behind.

    I'm not interested in changing things for unnamed, supposed, "other" people. No, if folks won't speak up for themselves, then I've no use for them. Now if a member of this group needs help, I'll do whatever I can to accommodate them. All they need do is ask.

    We've seen some of this already. Folks are posting their versions of tunes in order to help others. If a slow version of the tune will help, ask a member to record one for you!

    I can tell you that I've learned pleanty from this group; beginners and advanced. I can already hear improvement being made in just three months of recodings (mine and others)! Imagine what a year would do...

  13. #63

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    Yeah, folks have improved a lot! After a year, it'll be interesting to hear!!

    I agree that if people won't speak up, it's hard to help out. Seriously, I think that those who have left, are gone and won't come back, but let's change things so that future members won't give up. I'm glad we at last came to this conclusion.

    It's a good idea to have members record slow and easy versions. Actually, if there aren't any easy tabs around, this is an alternative.

  14. #64

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    Personally, I would be interested in an alternative to this project. For the sake of avoiding confusion it would probably be better to set it up on a seperate website.

    I quite frankly an am baffled by the idea that an alternate project could be seen as some sort of competition.

    This project seems to be working well for the 20 some people who are participating and that is great. But for the rest, I don't see what harm trying a different approach could cause.

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    I agree....the "one size fits all" approach doesn't quite cut it in this instance, so something that's a little more accessible for the "masses" seems to be perfectly reasonable, IMO. And I agree with Jaded, where's the harm? I don't see how it would take anything away from this group, since those folks aren't participating anyway, right?

    Personally, I plan to keep participating in this group -- I've been playing a little over a year, and can hack my way through these tunes fairly okay, as long as I slow them waaaaaay down. But I know that when I first started to play, there's no WAY I could have tackled most of these tunes -- at least not the Co-Mando versions. So, it's a very nice offer you've made bluegrasstjej -- and I'm sure there will be many who appreciate your effort.

    Carolyn

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    I agree that a lot of the TAB files available are somewhat advanced when learning an unfamiliar tune. Although tab-edit is sort of awkward to create files from scratch, it is pretty simple to edit existing tunes. Maybe some of the more seasoned players could take an exisiting TEF file and edit it to a more approachable version for beginners to learn from. just an idea

  17. #67

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    I think that's a great idea and I see you have already done something. Great stuff, very nice version, I think this one should work well for the beginners.

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    thank you everyone for all the thoughts, suggestions and input to this. it's good to see that so many care about this project and where it's going.

    it is clear that there are at least a good few that find it "intimidating" (i know there's a better word) to post due to some of the other more sophisticated recordings. it has been suggested that we limit the recordings to just one-track; no frills; no back-up; no drum-machines; no nothin' but pure mandolin. what do you all think about that? would that ease some of the discrepancy between beginners and the more advanced recordings?

    also, i whole-heartedly agree that there are easier versions of the songs available to learn. but, i simply haven't the time to search them out. so, i've continued to make available just the stuff easiest to find (i.e. TEF files from co-mando.com). it would be better if everyone could pitch in to find various versions of the songs (TEF files, sheet music, MP3s and MIDIs). how does this sound? each month the poll goes up you can send me your versions of whichever songs are on the poll and i can make them available via links on the poll.

    bluegrasstjej, it would be a shame to split up this group. hopefully, it won't come to that, but if it does, so be it. i'm trying to accomodate everyone the best i can.

    despite all this, i hope most of you are still enjoying this project as much as i am! keep the recordings coming and happy pickin'!!

    cheers,

    craig

  19. #69

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    I'm not sure about having one-track recordings only. Back-up is also something we mandolin pickers need to learn and improve on. I would agree though that there should not be any guitar back-up or flashy stuff like that. But before saying that, maybe I should ask if the project is for other instruments? There is something about it on the main page and I know fiddlers have been invited. If so, we can't limit it to be only mandolins.

    The thing that makes me want to post my stuff is that there are not only great players who post their recordigns but all levels, and this can be done if we have resources for all levels. I know it's hard to find beginner stuff on the internet, but Mandoanon had a great idea and we have a good start here with the easy versions of Fisher's hornpipe.

    It would be good if we could have only one project. I really like the folks here and the experienced players have lots of good advice to give to the less experienced players.

  20. #70
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    If putting guitar, bass, bagpipes, etc... on your recording gets you motivated, then I say go for it. I personally like the simple aproach but if I were to get the inkling, I'd throw something else on there. I'm a sucker for a mando guitar duet...

    I would also leave the group open to other instruments. If you want to learn the tune, then you're in... I'd like to see some guitar backup tracks; get a fiddler's take on a tune, etc...

    I like the idea of the "group challange"... For example, if someone is posting only to Musings, I think the group should challange them to learn that month's tune or post a backup track or something... Done in a friendly mannor with a notion to help and support the group, I think it could be a good thing.

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    Hey everybody - shut up and play yer mandolin!

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    I haven't contributed any MP3s because I don't have a way of recording so maybe I don't have a right to an opinion, but I don't see any reason to limit the songs to simple melody with no backup.

    For a simple song like Sally Goodin you can have a backup track as simple as just an A chord through the whole song. That would be the most basic accompanyment for a beginner to play. The melody will still work and since it is a 'traditional', public domain song the chords have probably changed many times through the years, depending on who was playing it and what region of the country they are in.

    On the other hand I like playing simple 'swing' chords over Sally Goddin that follow a walking base line. Do you think beginners are only interested in hearing and learning one way of approaching a song? Could be, I don't know but IMHO part of learning to play involves emersing yourself in every aspect of the music. Even a beginner will get bored after a while just playing an A chord over Sally Goodin. When this happens they can start playing a more complex set of chords like the changes in most of the MP3s. When they get bored with those changes they should know that they can approach the song in other ways to add more harmonic interest.

    This is just another opinion.




  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by (250sc @ May 28 2004, 20:57)
    Even a beginner will get bored after a while just playing an A chord over Sally Goodin. When this happens they can start playing a more complex set of chords like the changes in most of the MP3s. When they get bored with those changes they should know that they can approach the song in other ways to add more harmonic interest.

    This is just another opinion.
    Well, this is what happens when you learn and improve - you want to try new things.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by (cam @ May 28 2004, 18:35)
    Hey everybody - shut up and play yer mandolin!
    I like that comment!!!!

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