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Thread: Respect your elders

  1. #26
    Registered User Andrew Lewis's Avatar
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    To follow up on my inital post, I would say that I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here. In a situation in which fine print is involved, the onus is indeed on the buyer to read all of it. Could Elderly make it clearer for people like Rico? Probably. Do they absolutely have to? Of course, not. But could it ease their relations with customers? More than likely.

    As for my situation, my item was one of those that fell within the free shipping thing and they confirmed this through the checkout process and follow up email. Did they just make a mistake when they finally got the item from backorder and shipped it? Yeah. Not that big of a deal. I'll contact them cordially and get the situation resolved. No sweat. And as for customer service contact, I do also agree that a phone call is the best method and email can be dubious at times. I'll probably give them a call at this point to rectify the shipping charge on my CC.
    Andrew Lewis
    Collings MT2, Tone Gard, Tortis Style C heavy, bootlace strap, J74s

  2. #27
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    yes of course I should have read all of the details regarding free shipping. I just bought my first mando and with an upgraded tailpiece I needed a gigbag, strings and a learn how to play the little guy dvd. i didnt cancel the order. i want what i ordered and i didnt buy extra to make it over $149 by spending $80 to save $9. i trusted elderlys reputation as others have said they have done business with them for 30 yrs with no probs at all. i trusted that when i read free ship on orders over $149 that I would get free shipping. they have lost my trust on the first order. i didnt expect elderly to do something like that, if it had been guitar center or a non-brick & mortar netshop that noone has ever heard of i would certainly have been more careful.
    is it my mistake that i missed the rules? why yes it is
    is elderly's practice ethical? who cares
    will i ever buy from elderly again? why no i will not.
    others have fallen in this rut also, maybe a few wont get tripped now
    A trip of 1,000 miles starts with 1 step.

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  3. #28
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    My tendency is to look for intent and whether the approach is reasonable or not. I've certainly seen Internet advertising where the intent is suspect and the approach quite unreasonable. Elderly doesn't come close to this. In fact, I just spent less than a minute getting to the "free shipping" indicator next to an item. I looked at the home page, saw the "free shipping" - and the clear conditions pointed to. Read the conditions page, very compact, hit "new instruments", hit a Martin HD-28 new and bingo, there's the free shipping indicator.

    Having gone through the process, I can't see anything at all confusing, wrong, misleading, or incompetently done on Elderly's part. I like it and will remember it. Maybe I'll use that approach. Very simple.
    Stephen Perry

  4. #29
    Registered User Tim's Avatar
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    When someone tells me the information is on their website and describe a series of clicks, the more steps there are the less "friendly" the site is. #I can see those points that the info was on the site but you had to look at least two different places and do a separate subtotal of your purchases to see what applied. #This is a matter of degrees but the more a business makes me feel like I have to work for information on what they offer, the less likely I am to buy. #

    I do agree with that the Amazon free shipping on orders over $25 is generally a good thing but it does seem to take a long time for them to ship when shipping is free.
    <Insert witty saying here>

  5. #30
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    You have to remember though...you are internet savvy AND you were looking for it. I don't mean to offend, but a lot of bluegrass folks aren't the most tech savvy folks. Some are, but a lot use the internet for simple email and what not. So trying to stretch their limbs for the first time with online ordering...this would be hard to discern....but I do agree that it's not a malicious intent. But it is kind of vague for those not used to looking for fine print for online sales...

    Paul

  6. #31
    Jason Wicklund DryBones's Avatar
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    I still don't think the free shipping if offered on an item should then be excluded if they have to back order an item. You ordered it when it was offered so it should be part of the original "contract".
    Jason

    Lefty JBovier F5 Tradition, Lefty Mid-Mo M1

  7. #32
    Registered User ApK's Avatar
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    Steve, you're in thread of people talking about details they don't like in Elderly's approach and comparing them to other approaches that they, as customers, like better, and you would choose the one they are complaining about? You'd rather put "Free shipping on orders over xx" and risk some complaints, than put "Free shipping on most orders over xx*" and avoid them? Or are you only refering to the backorder policy?

  8. #33
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Item 1) My experience with Elderly has always been great!

    Item 2) I always do business with a real person over the phone. I look at the web page and then call to discuss everything - the product, the "free" offers, etc.

    That said, for accessories Sweetwater is really free shipping - on everything. Not much mandolin stuff, but what they have is sent to you for free.

    f-d
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    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  9. #34
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    My experience with Elderly is almost the opposite. A few months ago I needed a guitar case. Elderly clearly declared it was not included in the free shipping offer. I then went to another online dealer who similarly claimed free shipping, bought a few other items to get up to the free shipping amount and only when I checked out was it stated the case was not included in free shipping. I made the purchase anyway but went away thinking I should have gone with Elderly for at least being forthright...

    Mandotom

  10. #35
    Registered User Elliot Luber's Avatar
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    Shipping is expensive for dealers too. I once complained to another store that shipping one set of strings costed more than the strings themselves, and he replied, "yes, it costs me more than the strings to package it and ship them." I now buy multiple sets at a time. It's a trade off on the Web, you pay shipping but USUALLY not tax. It's really your responsibility to read the information in plain sight.




  11. #36
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    Getting upset with Elderly because you didn't read and understand their policy on free shipping is like blaming the guy you hit with your car because you didn't see him (even though you were driving one direction and looking the other).

    You were operating the computer. You selected your items, confirmed your credit card, saw the total price INCLUDING SHIPPING. At what point when given the option to cancel did you either not read what was on the screen, or decide to ignore what you did read on the screen? Making the assumption, as you state you did, that they'll remove the shipping price was your choice. You made the wrong choice.

    I don't get why you decided to complain about them when you made the mistake. They state pretty clearly what their policy is.

    Again, if you decide to ignore it, you can't blame them for you not knowing it.

    Joy to all anyway,
    Ken
    Less talk, more pick.

  12. #37
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    I had the same question about the final "check out." My experience has been that the bottom line amount that's going on your credit card is there in black and white and you can either accept or cancel. Doesn't that eliminate any questions? Or maybe that wasn't the case here. Also, maybe instead of trashing Elderly did you try calling and explaining the problem and seeing if something could be worked out? Sorry if that's been discussed before, I've been reading this over a couple of days and can't remember//// My experience with Elderly has been limited, but good.
    Pat Hull
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  13. #38
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    My name is Stan Werbin and I am the owner/president of Elderly Instruments. Thanks to all of you who have participated in this discussion.

    We certainly have no intent to not honor our offers. As do most other businesses who offer free shipping online, we have a page that explains the general offer, plus any exceptions to the offer. We thought we were expressing our free shipping offer clearly, and that people would understand that they were not absolute, but that there were some exceptions.

    It seems that not everyone who wants free shipping bothers to read the "fine print" and although I can't blame anybody for not wanting to read through it, I'm surprised that people who haven't read it would be angry at us if they don't qualify.

    We know there are some inconsistencies. For instance, it doesn't even make sense to ME that we exclude all empty cases (like, for instance, mandolin cases) from this offer. But our intent is to NOT give free shipping on "oversize" items like guitar cases because they are very costly to ship, and we don't have an easy foolproof way right now for our computers to differentiate between small and large cases. So, since, after all, we're giving something away here, we figured that we could make the rules for the giveaway, and excluded all cases from the offer. That may change, but right now it is the best we can do.

    I gather that the real problem may be that our message re the offer is not clear enough. In response to this thread we will be changing some of the wording shortly.

    It also sounds like somebody's backorders got messed up, and I apologize for that too. Sometimes things can fall through the cracks, especially on backorders, which tend to be a more manual process. If anybody out there ever has a problem with an order or anything else with Elderly Instruments I would appreciate hearing about it directly, so we can be sure it gets taken care of in a proper manner.

    Regards to all,
    Stan Werbin
    swerbin@elderly.com
    888-473-5810 ext 800
    517-372-7890 ext 800
    Stan Werbin
    Elderly Instruments
    1100 N. Washington
    Lansing, MI 48906
    phone 888-473-5810 or 517-372-7880
    fax 517-372-5155
    email at swerbin@elderly.com

    Always buying quality vintage and used guitars, banjos mandolins, and related fretted instruments.

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  14. #39
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    I've got extensive experience with Elderly - I order lots of stuff from them. I've never had a single problem. However i always talk to someone over the phone.

    It's still not too late to do that you know. Call someone at Elderly and explain the situation. You'll get more results that way.The folks here at the Mandolin Cafe are nice - but we're only able to offer opinions. To get results you'll need to contact Elderly.
    You can't see your future in a rear view mirror.

  15. #40
    Got Buckstrips? Jerry Byers's Avatar
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    Thanks Stan for your post. It is a positive reflection on your company and shows that Elderly is in tune with their customers.

  16. #41
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Jerry Byers @ Mar. 30 2007, 15:54)
    Thanks Stan for your post. It is a positive reflection on your company and shows that Elderly is in tune with their customers.
    Amen to that.

    I have had small problems from time to time with just about every on line or catalog store with whom I have done business - and Elderly has been among the best in responding to and correcting for the problems experienced.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Ken Sager Posted

    ... You selected your items, confirmed your credit card, saw the total price INCLUDING SHIPPING...
    Exactamundo Ken. I've ordered a lot of merchandise from Elderly and have nothing but praise for them. That said I also make sure I verify all of the charges at checkout just like I do at any other merchant online or otherwise. If the charges don't jibe I cancel the order and go back and read the fine print.

    Example
    # # # # # # # Strings# # # # ## # # # # # ##$12.95 #
    # # # # # # # Book# # # # # # # # # # # # ##$16.25 #
    # # # # # # # DVD# # # # # # # # # # # # # #$19.95 #
    # # # # # # # subtotal # # # # # # # # # ##$49.15 #
    shipping and handling charge ##6.50
    # # # # # # # Total Amount # # # # # ##$55.65 #


    I really don't know how their backorder shipping policy could be stated any clearer either.


    Select backorder option to let us know what to do in case an item or items is out of stock:

    Do not backorder (default).

    Backorder acceptable, but please hold my order until it is complete.

    Backorder acceptable ( I'll pay the extra postage) up to: #4 weeks #60 days


    I guess this is just another sign of the times we live in "I made a mistake so now I need to blame it on someone else".

    GVD
    GVD

  18. #43
    Registered User Andrew Lewis's Avatar
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    Stan,

    I really appreciate your professionalism and proactiveness. I had stated in an earlier post that I was a little turned off with my situation and would likely shop elsewhere, however, in light of this discussion and the many words of praise for Elderly, I was thinking I'd be happy to give y'all another shot. Your post to this thread made me confident that I will return to Elderly again (soon, as a matter of fact - I need a pickup!). As for my backorder/free shipping situation, I'm really not sweating the 6 bucks. Thank you for jumping in on this one...
    Andrew Lewis
    Collings MT2, Tone Gard, Tortis Style C heavy, bootlace strap, J74s

  19. #44
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    since I started this discussion let me +1 for
    Stan and Elderly
    with a response like that how could I not give them another chance. I hope that in 30 years I will be saying that I have done business with Elderly since '07 and they have always done right by me.
    A trip of 1,000 miles starts with 1 step.

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  20. #45
    Registered User Steve-o's Avatar
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    Wow. After reading through this thread, hearing Stan's response and then the buyer's responses, this is a fine example of good customer service. The psychology is clear: Customers like to be heard, whether the complaint is "legitimate" or not, and business owners need to show they CARE, are not perfect, and are willing to change to meet customer expectations. It's all about relationships - we are all human. Elderly did the right thing and it ends on a positive note. That's sweet music to my ears.

    P.S. I do regular business with Elderly and will continue to.

  21. #46
    Registered User red7flag's Avatar
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    I have had the pleasure of dealing with Stan and the Elderly folks for many years. He is as upfront a person as I have dealt with. I was thinking of trading in an instrument as part of a purchase. He gave me the trade-in price, but informed me that I could probably get more on the open market due to the particular instrument. This is just one example of many of how he has done me right. The honesty that he displays runs through the organization. I have bought both instruments, accessories and CDs from them for a long time. They have always stood beside their product and their service. Thank you for the ride Stan.
    Tony Huber
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