String change = intonation change?

[Travis Wilson]

This might be a really dumb question as string length does not change, but...

I have been playing medium gauge strings. #If I make a change to either light or heavy gauge strings does this change the intonation? #Do I need to move my bridge?

Thanks.
TDW

[James P]

Not in my experience. But you might find that you need to raise it up some to avoid fret buzzing.

[250sc]

Yes, that will be likely.

[jk245]

"intonation' is related to the actual equal distance from the 12th fret to the bridge and the 12th fret to the nut. A change of the string wire diameter is not related to intonation if you did not (accidentally) move the bridge position when you changed the string.

A different diameter string might effect the height of the strings from the frets since the string rests differently on the slots in the nut and the bridge. In that case if you have a buzzing then raise the bridge height slightly.
For the adjusting nut:
COUNTER-CLOCKWISE = UP
CLOCKWISE = DOWN

see
http://www.johnsongtr.com/uploads/me...dge_Set_Up.pdf

http://folkofthewood.com/page2449.htm

http://www.gibson.com/magazines/ampl.../tipsheet.html

[mythicfish]

In extreme cases (ultra-light to super-heavy) one might make an arguement for a theoretical change in intonation.
But for practical purposes, few members of our species would notice the differences and even fewer would care.

Curt

[Travis Wilson]

So if I understand correctly, there should be no change in the intonation, but if I change the string diameter, then bridge height may need to be altered.

Lighter strings = higher bridge due to deeper seating in the bridge? The converse being true for heavier gauge strings?

[jk245]

So if I understand correctly, there should be no change in the intonation, but if I change the string diameter, then bridge height may need to be altered.
Lighter strings = higher bridge due to deeper seating in the bridge? The converse being true for heavier gauge strings?

if you do not hear a buzz then don't mess with it

[EdSherry]

For instruments with adjustable bridge saddles (e.g., most electric guitars), it is quite common to adjust the "intonation" (scale length) when changing string gauges.

Most mandolin bridges are pre-intonated to be "roughly" in tune regardless of string gauges. #I've heard that some fanatics will try to adjust the bridge to fit the intonation to the string gauges, but I've never done it. #Nor have I moved the bridge. #I've never heard anyone recommend doing so.

YOu may have to adjust the set-up (not intonation) when you change string gauges.

[Mando Medic]

I'm one of those "Fanatics" and I do set the bridge for any possible changes in inntonation when changing string guages. It isn't always necessary, but sometimes it is. Kenc

[ApK]

Is it also possible that the change in tension will effect neck relief (causing more or less bowing) that may effect intonation?

[Givson]

Yep. All of these things can effect intonation. It depends how fussy or "fanatical" you are about having a really good setup. Ideally, your instrument should be set up for the gauge of strings you use. Going from mediums to lights should not cause any neck issues, but going from lights to heavies (or the reverse) could require some tweaking of the truss rod and adjusting the bridge.

[250sc]

I'm suprised so many people don't feel there will be any change in the intonation with different guage strings. The only "scientific" basis I can fall back on is situations when setting up electric guitars with different guage strings I'd get out the Peterson strobe and re-adjust the adjustable saddles. There was diffenatly a change. When I broke a pedal steel string and needed to substitute one that was a little different guage I had to re-adjust the stops to make the string pull to the proper pitch. This wasn't just my ear, which I'll admit can be off. It was the tuning machines (high end) that were detecting the differences.

When I changed from J74s to J75s on my collings the top compressed to a point where I had to work with the action (not neck relief) and re-adjust the bridge position.

I've never thought of myself as overly fussy about the upkeep of my instruments. Maybe I'm just fooling myself?

[MandoSquirrel]

I've sometimes had to adjust the bridge when changing sets of the same string brand & model, & it's not unusual if I'm trying a different brand and/or gauge.

[mythicfish]

And if you have to take it out of the house ... fuggedabowditt!

Curt

[Soupy1957]

(thinking out loud) no matter WHAT the diameter of the string is, the radii of the slot in the bridge and the nut stay constant.

In other words, regardless of diameter of the string, the string can't sit any lower than the radii that the bridge and nut will allow.

This being the case, the "buzz" factor would be because of the radii of the SIDES of the slots that the string rests in, allowing it more side-to-side movement. The distance to the frets would not change.

Doesn't that make sense?

-Soupy1957

[MikeEdgerton]

You're aren't taking into account this model

[Soupy1957]

or this one.....

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually, going to a larger string gauge is more likely to create the model I listed above (exaggerated as it is). Look closely at the slots in the nut. Does it look like there's room for a larger string to fit? If there is then there might be other problems. I was always told that half the string should be below the surface. I don't know if that was just the guy I learned from or an accepted practice, it's the way I've always done it.

[Soupy1957]

Mike,
Although I never measured it, but "assumed" (I'll leave myself open for the obvious) that the grooves were cut origionally to accomodate a typical string size relative to the instrument involved, I would agree that I would expect at LEAST a third, if not a "half" of the string to live in the groove provided.

"My" illustration was exaggerated to illustrate what I was trying to say....obviously the strings would not sit that deep in the pocket, yes.

-Soupy1957

[Bertram Henze]

Going heavy to light, strings need less tension to reach a given pitch. Under less tension, string intonation becomes more susceptible to slight tension changes, such as the one caused by fretting (i.e. pressing down the string). This effect should be the stronger the higher the action and the lower the tension. Electric guitar players use it deliberately when doing bends. Thus, less string tension may need a slightly longer scale to compensate for this. However, in the high-tension range of mandolin strings this difference should be negligible.

Bertram

[Michael Lewis]

There are definitely intonation differences between gauges and even within the same gauge but of different brands. "How" you may ask. Well, if string maker A uses .020" for a core wire and .010" for the wrap making a .040" gauge string and string maker B uses .016" core wire and .012" wrap wire to achieve the same gauge of .040" the latter string will require much less compensation at the saddle than the stiffer string from string maker A. Stiffness is a major consideration for intonation. The example above is hypothetical, but the concept is true. For example, GHS and D'Addario have slightly differing approaches to the core to wrap ratios. They usually require different compensation at the saddle.

If your hearing is sensitive you will notice, if your hearing is not as "educated" you can ignore this post. Many folks don't notice the difference but some are very sensitive to this. David Grisman and Erik Thomas are both great mandolin players and very sensitive to tuning/intonation. Maybe if I could hear better I would be a better mandolin player.