Planned improv?

[RHBoy]

Hi all,

When I don't know a song, many times I'll start an improv with some standard licks and go from there. I never really have a clear notion of the "destination", except for chord changes. Sometimes this works wonderfully. Sometimes it's a train wreck! I think I should work on ideas such as either wanting a Monroe-type sound or a jazz-style sound, so my leads will have some consistency and perhaps sound better. This would be not exactly a planned lead, but a skeleton of how I would like it to sound. Does this sound like what you do or do you do something different? Thanks.

[groveland]

I recommend a strong entrance and an exit strategy, and leave the body of the solo for the moment.

[Mike Bunting]

I prefer to start by playing the melody and letting it develop from there.

[Flowerpot]

This is quite a big topic, and an interesting one. But it really depends what kind of music you're playing.

Jazz/swing, you can really take some time to stretch out and develop something, and you're not as tied to the melody; you're expected to come up with your own interesting melodic structure. I'm not expert here, and there are whole books written on the subject of jazz improv.

Bluegrass, well, you've got to get in and get back out pretty quickly. The "model" that gets used by a lot of bluegrass musicians is (assume 16 measures): 1st 4 measures, state the melody clearly so you can tell what song you're playing; middle 8 measures, start taking off from the melody, adding in about 50% snippets of melody and 50% chord-related improvisation; last 4 measures, pull out all the stops, put in your best hot licks, make some eyebrows go up, and end the solo with good closure on the root. Of course there are variations (if the song sweet and happy, refrain from too many blue notes, or if bluesy and hard driving, keep it dark sounding with lots of flat 3, flat 7, and flat5's) and exceptions (banjo tune may not have much of a melody). Being able to state the melody well, and having a good vocabulary of ending licks will go a long way to making a good solo.

[hedding]

I have found for me that standard licks get really limited really fast, but maybe I just don't have enough of them. I have become increasingly conscious of the melody and it makes the breaks much more interesting even if it isn't as well executed.

[mythicfish]

I come from an early and extensive background in vocal music, so a lot of what I'm able to create on the mandolin
is the result of phrases and figures which I'm able to sing - or "scat" - without having to have an instrument in my hands.
This comes in handy while driving or showering - neither of which I'm particularly fond of.
A good solo only comes with a deep and intimate knowledge of the piece played - it's not just something that you toss off
"for your own enjoyment". You've got to know your song well before you start singing. (Yeah, I know ... somebody said that).
And while I'm at it: Your average jam is often a poor environment for learning anything substantial. It's usually an
incubator for mediocrity.

" I recommend a strong entrance and an exit strategy..."

Good advice ... for Foreign Policy.

"I prefer to start by playing the melody and letting it develop from there"

Maybe good for dating ... not so good for music.

"1st 4 measures, state the melody clearly so you can tell what song you're playing; middle 8 measures, start taking off from the melody, adding in about 50% snippets of melody and 50% chord-related improvisation; last 4 measures, pull out all the stops, put in your best hot licks, make some eyebrows go up, and end the solo with good closure on the root."

Nearly as descriptive as my recipe for chile.

Good musicianship is like deep earth mining ... You've got to get WAY below the surface before you start bringing up
anything of real value. And please ... listen to as many kinds of music as you dare.

Curt

[JeffD]

Here is one I have read elsewhere and find very helpful. Learn your major (and minor) pentatonic scales. Practice them a lot. They will sit under your fingers and guide you during an improv.

[Don Stiernberg]

There are a few approaches you might try...

Stay around the tune's melody, changing the rhythms, adding a blue note here and there, subtracting a note,adding melodies of your own in the "holes" or spaces in the existing melody. We might think of this as "melodic" improvisation--based on the actual melody. It happens a lot in fiddle tune variations and choro...

Another approach might be considered "harmonic" improvisation. Here you create melodies from the tune's harmonic structure. Jazz players call this "playing the changes"It's Ok to collect up phrases for certain chord sounds or progressions(I-IV-V, ii-V-I, etc..) then see how you can string them together. Remember your goal is to play
a melody but not THE melody...To take some of the mystery out of this exploration, I recommend using all one rhythm pattern, say eighth notes, for starters. That can help the ideas flow, and in most of the styles mentioned here, that's the basic rhythmic unit of measure anyway.

It's also cool to compose an entire solo that you know is going to work. Even Louis Armstrong, Jack Teagarden and them cats did this, they called them "routines". Soon enough you'll be varying the routine and getting closer to actually improvising.

Pentatonics and blues scales can be a bit of a trap IMO...
They ARE a good starting point, but be careful not to end there or all your solos may sound like that. Or like someone else's.

My column in Mandolin Magazine explores this very challenge in some detail, and not just on jazz tunes. You may want to check those out. As we speak I'm taking a break from writing some new studies on this very topic for the Kaufman Kamp and Mandolin Symposium.

John McGann has a book on developing solos for fiddle tunes which would undoubtedly be helpful. Jazz Improv magazine also has useful articles in each issue--harmonic analysis, scales, etc..

Another fun thing is to sing something that you like or that works over the changes, then find it on the mandolin and play it. Or(conversely) try to sing along with phrases you're accustomed to playing. Ultimately we all want to be like George Benson or Johnny Gimble on the thing, singing/playing what we hear and make up AS IT HAPPENS.

There sure are going to be some train wrecks! Sometimes that's where the coolest stuff comes from--let them happen! Don't be afraid or discouraged, lines get better all the time if you know the changes and the tune and just keep going to the well. I still love Vassar's quote..."I get painted into a corner sometimes, so then I have to paint myself out!" And did he ever..

Good luck and let me know if any of this helps or makes sense. Thanks and Happy Pickin' to all fellow improvisers.

[homermando]

I liked Don`s suggestion about staying around the melody and changing the rhythms. I`ve been experimenting with playing fiddle tunes like Blackberry Blossom and Devil`s Dream as jigs in 6/8 time. This helps me think about the tunes in different ways and sometimes create some interesting variations.

[RHBoy]

Thanks for the tips everyone. They are all useful. Don and Curt seem to both agree on "singing" a solo. I tried this technique this morning with interesting results. Now if I can just remember how I did it... The breakdown of the lead breaks by flowerpot was interesting also. I worked on minor pentatonic scale last night. I'm usually better at starting a break than ending one strongly-another piece of good advice.

Great stuff, keep it coming.
Thanks,
Jeff

[mythicfish]

"Now if I can just remember how I did it...:"

Improvisation is like composition ... without the paper.
Just as your eye stays ahead of the print when you read aloud ... your ear/brain can hear the notes, phrases, and rhythms
that you want to execute before you sing/play them. With enough honest practice, searching, and experimentation, you
can develop a musical vocabulary, syntax and grammer that is unique and meaningful.
"Playing fast is not difficult ... thinking fast is difficult" Tal Farlow? Joe Pass?

Curt

[jmcgann]

Composition (can be) improvisation not in real time.
Improvisation is composition in real time.

To compose in real time, you need a good toolbox. Know your scales, especially arpeggios, and what each note will sound like against the chord of the moment. In a way it's easy because it is finite:

In bluegrass you are talking triad chords, and mostly majors. Most of your note choices are the 7 scales notes. Get to know what the chord tones 1 3 5 sound like. They have the same character against the chord of the moment in every key. Then get to know 2, 4 and 6. Ditto. Then listen to the in between notes (b9, b3, b5, b6 and b7). There's 12 altogether.

Mix and match to taste

Chord tones are your strongest/safest go-to notes.

There's some guy wrote some book (with a CD) about how to use this information on fiddle tunes.

Jazz is the same foundation, but the chords are extended a bit. Same principals apply.

=============
And yes, it is a great idea to have some worked out solos. It's impossible to access everything you want on the fly in the beginning- so sit down and craft a break that is what you'd like to be able to pull out of your hat in real time. Practice it until it is second nature to play. Play it on some gigs.

Just don't stop there- when you get bored, compose another on the same tune, And another. And another. After a few months, you'll juggle ideas from solo #1 with #3, #2 with #4 etc. and viola- you are improvising! Russ Barenberg suggested this to me in the '80's and it worked pretty well. Don't forget to learn tons of tunes to help your intuition with how the melodies move, from a stylistic standpoint.

[Peter Hackman]

Hi all,

When I don't know a song, many times I'll start an improv with some standard licks and go from there. #I never really have a clear notion of the "destination", except for chord changes. #Sometimes this works wonderfully. #Sometimes it's a train wreck! #I think I should work on ideas such as either wanting a Monroe-type sound or a jazz-style sound, so my leads will have some consistency and perhaps sound better. #This would be not exactly a planned lead, but a skeleton of how I would like it to sound. #Does this sound like what you do or do you do something different? #Thanks.

It's like chess, I guess. There are standard gambits and yet they end up
different each time.

What's needed in the way of preparation is to familiarize yourself with the
material, the chords, the rhythmic character, the mood, etc., of the tune.
It doesn't hurt to work up a few phrases that fit the mood
and then decide on the spot whther to use them or not. You will probably
come up with new variations on them.

I once recorded with two top jazz musicians on songs that had very
complex changes. They asked me to run through the changes on
my guitar, ching-ding-ding-ding, no frills, just straight chords,
one per beat. The saxophonist just played and played on top of that till
he felt he had the changes down. The bass player soloed some, and
I noted that almost every phrase began on the root of the chord.
That was his way of internalizing the changes. When the tape started rolling he was ready to invent.

In bluegrass I suppose the big challenge is to make solos
different from one time to the next on a tune (that's almost automatic)
and yet retain so much of its character that you can tell one tune from the other in spite of their harmonic similarities. Having recognized
that difficulty may have some impact on your choice of material!

[Chip Booth]

This is a great thread, I hope it continues. #It's hard to add anything to this discussion with folks like Don and John giving their thoughts, but I will put in my 2 cents.

Some improvising tricks I use include:

- Following the "pitch curve of the melody". #I hope I can explain this. #For example, if you draw the melody as a curve on paper with high notes going up, low notes going down it may have distinct areas where the melody builds up or sinks down low, etc. #When soloing I don't play the same notes but I will sometimes follow this "curve" so that my improved melody has the same flow as the original melody. #Of course, you could play the opposite curve for an different effect.

- If a melody has a distinct or interesting rhythm in some section I often keep that rhythmic phrase intact but play different notes.

- Likewise, if the melody has a phrase you feel is important or a "signature" I may keep that piece of the melody intact but alter it rhythmically.


I rely heavily on having learned the sound of pitches as John mentioned above. #I have played scales and arpeggios endlessly, and can tell visually and by sound what pitch I am on in the scale, and how it relates to the chord. #By knowing this I can translate the sound I want to hear next to the fretboard. #In a word, I guess that's eartraining.

As Pete was describing, thoroughly knowing the chord structure you are playing over is very important. #I come from a background where I mainly "play the changes" even though I am not primarily a jazz guy. #When I learn fiddle tunes I often concentrate so much on the melody that when I take that first break in a jam I realize I don't have the chords fully internalized and those first few solos can be a mess until I take the time to really work on and think through the changes.

Groveland recommended having a strong exit strategy and#I completely agree. #My standard improved solo goes something like this: #I'm starting with a basic variation of the melody, build it up, get a little outside the box, find a groove, play a few hot licks that surprise even me... #I'm 90% through the solo and I get cocky, loose my concentration patting myself on the back for how well I've done so far, and the ending is a TRAINWRECK. #I creap into a corner and hide in shame. #This happens to me so often I have given it a name: "blowing the dismount". There are two lessons to be learned there, don't ever lose your concentration, but also have some prepared endings you can fall back on safely.

Chip

[hattio]

As someone who has played music, mostly bass, for years, but has just started trying to improvise, I will put my two cents in. But if someone who actually knows something disagrees with me, go with what they say.
When I first started trying to solo, I basically just knew the scales, and would sort of concentrate on playing within the scale. Not surprisingly, while it sometimes sounded decent, most often it just sounded like I was wandering around within the scale. I quickly learned that even basically following the scale up or down will sound better if you retain the rhythm of the melody. Of course you want to learn your basic notes that it's okay to end phrases on. Following the pitch curve of the melody came next. Then I bought the pentatonic mandolin book and have begun (barely) to figure out pentatonic scales. Another thing you can do is play the same starting on G, then C (when the chord changes) then D. Problem with that is you may want to have two or three G licks because the chords will often have so many more measures of G than the other two chords.
Anyway, after all that I'm finally up to the point where I rarely sound like I'm just wandering around in the key, usually sound decent, and every once in a while sound like I might almost some day know what the hell I'm doing....but it's fun.

[Steve Scott]

Lots of very good ideas so far. There are a couple of approaches that I find useful.
One is to pretend I am a horn player and "take a breath" from time to time. Adding a little space can be effective. Check out Louis Armstrong, Louis Jordan, Bix etc.

The other thing is to throw in a chord or two in the middle of your break.

[Pete Martin]

It also helps to know the stylistic tendencies of the music you play. If you are playing old school Bluegrass, stick fairly close to the melody and embellish from there. If playing bebop or later style jazz, often players start simply and build their ideas and intensity over numerous choruses.

I often hear less experienced players come out with “all guns blazing”, playing their flashiest licks right away in a solo. A good strategy is to dole these hot licks out over a period of time, looking for the most effective place they can go. Like Don and others mentioned, sing the solo and play what you sing. Practice singing a solo while stopped at a traffic light, walking to the office, waiting for the bus, etc. One can do a lot of “mental practice” away from the instrument and improve their playing.

One thought I’d like to add about improvising with pentatonic scales. These are tools just like anything else. I don’t hear my favorite players using them except occasionally and for very specific effect. While “pentatonic scale” can mean any 5 note scale, usually the pentatonic scales folks use have no half steps (notes one fret away from each other). To many soloists, half steps are the most interesting notes in a solo. They are often used as “leading tones” to help propel a solo forward. This forward motion is key in making any solo logical, therefore interesting to a listener.

There is nothing wrong with planning solos, or sections of solos. I’ve heard lots of players play similar solos over the years, even great improvisers. If you find something you like, explore it and expand on it.

[John Flynn]

I read an interview with the great jazz clarinetist Pete Fountain. The interviewer stated that Fountain was renouned for improvization and then asked him what his secret was to great improvization. Fountain replied words to the effect, "My secret is that I have never improvized anything in my life."

[Peter Hackman]

One is to pretend I am a horn player and "take a breath" from time to time. Adding a little space can be effective. Check out Louis Armstrong, Louis Jordan, Bix etc.

I don't need to pretend anything to do that! It's enough to
be a fallible human being.

A little more seriously, rhythm, rests, phrase length are to me
the most important variables driving and structuring
a solo.

[old coot]

An important thing often overlooked in group improvisation is the notion that playing nothing at all is a viable option.

[groveland]

" I recommend a strong entrance and an exit strategy..."

Good advice ... for Foreign Policy.

There's a great article referenced at jazzmando.com, "October 25, 2007 | Playing a solo is like telling a story", expounding on entrance and exit strategies and other effective public-speaking techniques and structures as applied to soloing. Check it out: Here. Good stuff.

[Peter Hackman]

I read an interview with the great jazz clarinetist Pete Fountain. The interviewer stated that Fountain was renouned for improvization and then asked him what his secret was to great improvization. Fountain replied words to the effect, "My secret is that I have never improvized anything in my life."

You've posted that quote at least three times.

Here's another quote (I forget the source):

We never talk about our music. Because, as soon as we do, we start telling lies.

[August Watters]

" I recommend a strong entrance and an exit strategy..."

Good advice. I would have said "phrasing." There have been plenty of good ideas here about what to play, but WHEN to play them is equally important.

Since standard fiddle tunes and bluegrass are built around specific phrase structures, I recommend listening closely to those to identify where the resolutions are -- and then structure your improv the same way.

August W

[AlanN]

I read an interview with the great jazz clarinetist Pete Fountain. The interviewer stated that Fountain was renouned for improvization and then asked him what his secret was to great improvization. Fountain replied words to the effect, "My secret is that I have never improvized anything in my life."

You've posted that quote at least three times.

Here's another quote (I forget the source):

We never talk about our music. Because, as soon as we do, we start telling lies.

Or from Johnny Gimble, when asked what he thought about during a particularly hot chorus of Sweet Ga. Brown:

"I was thinking about how much it is a shame that you all have to play rhythm"

[John Flynn]

Quote (jflynnstl @ April 14 2007, 23:14)
I read an interview with the great jazz clarinetist Pete Fountain. The interviewer stated that Fountain was renouned for improvization and then asked him what his secret was to great improvization. Fountain replied words to the effect, "My secret is that I have never improvized anything in my life."

You've posted that quote at least three times.

Here's another quote (I forget the source):

We never talk about our music. Because, as soon as we do, we start telling lies.

Oh gee, sorry I put you through having to read it three times. Heaven help us that there should be any repetition here on the Cafe'! Maybe it's because the three threads I posted it in were re-hashing the same topic. In case you haven't noticed, we do a lot of that here. I repeat quotes. Others repeat tired old opinions.