Lots of used 8ch powered mixers out there , Peavey, Kustom, ect with enough left over for some 10 or 12in speaker cabs. at your budget.
Lots of used 8ch powered mixers out there , Peavey, Kustom, ect with enough left over for some 10 or 12in speaker cabs. at your budget.
Jim Richmond
Buying used can be a good option when you're starting out. Unfortunately there is often a "Catch 22" where someone starting out has the least amount of experience required to evaluate the condition (or likely condition) of used gear, before buying it. That's where a more knowledgeable friend, or a forum like this one, can help.
The other problem with used gear in this particular market, is that recent advances in reducing size and weight -- like Class D amps, neodymium speakers, increased use of plastics in cabinets -- have only been available for a few years, and may not show up as often on the used market. There has been a wave of people upgrading from their older, heavier gear... especially as the Boomer population ages into retirement and wants more lightweight gear. That's why I sold off my old, original series 52 lb. Mackie SRM450 speakers a few years ago. The speakers I use now weigh 19 lbs. for the ZXA-1 monitors and 32 lbs. for the K10 mains. Much easier to lift and pack, at my advancing geezer age.
This may not apply to something like a Passport or a Fishman tower system that's designed to be lightweight anyway. But if you're shopping a conventional system and looking for used gear, be careful about getting stuck with something heavier than you need. That is, unless you're a young squirt with a strong back. Or can hire someone like that as a roadie.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
Does the budget includ the speaker stands for any of these suitcase systems? I don't think the Fenders and Yamahas come with stands, do they? And cables? Those are the sneaky expenses that git ya.
Dedicated Ovation player
Avid Bose user
This option was outside my "acoustic bands need a PA" and "Mic must be run through PAs" paradigms, and it could work really well for us. The other guitarist and I have a decent collection of amps, and we could easily set-up three: one for each instrument and one with two channels for the vocals.
I'm thinking the wisest choice might be to work with this for a while and see how things go. Thanks for the great suggestions.
c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
"What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
Think Hippie Thoughts...
Gear: The Current Cast of Characters
using my ETEK and 2 Carvin PM5 speakers , which sit on modified Mic stands as my Computer monitor ..
off the sound card jack.. fan is humming without audio input, now..
Haven't used the E-V SX 80 passive speakers for a while, they are nice products too..
molded cabinet, 8" + a horn..
writing about music
is like dancing,
about architecture
Musician's Friend is selling a Passport 150 package with speaker stands, plus an Audio-Technica mic and stand, one mic cable. All the Passport systems come with (pretty thin, but usable) speaker cables. The MF outfit is about $20 more than the standard discount price for the PA ($419 vs. $399).
The speaker stand brand is "Musician's Gear," which is unfamiliar to me, but the Passport speakers are pretty lightweight so I wouldn't be too apprehensive about "off brand" stands. When I got my Passport I had a pair of Ultimate stands for my former system -- plenty strong! -- but I had to buy two tapered poles for the stands because the sockets on the Passport speakers are smaller than on most heavier speakers. As I recall two replacement reversible poles cost me more than what MF's extra charge is for two speaker stands plus mic, stand and mic cable.
Not a big fan of the changes to the 150, though I guess the speaker voicing is "upgraded" -- changed, anyway. The new ones are four-channel rather than three, but two channels are quarter-inch connectors only, which leads me to think they may be high-Z and not as usable for mics, unless one uses line transformers to connect XLR cables to them. There's a standard docking feature for Fender wireless mics -- which the old ones didn't have, and which I found (on my old Passport 250, since traded) one could not retrofit.
Fender markets Passports for non-musical applications pretty aggressively; mine has a "vocal priority" feature which partially mutes "background music" (presumably coming in on channels other than #1) when there's signal coming in on Channel #1. Use for this would be if someone were giving a presentation, and wanted the other channels to "quiet" when he/she was speaking. As you might expect, this isn't a feature for which I have a lot of use...
So: my experience has been that the 150 is a rugged, useful system, with plenty of projection and relatively decent sound, though the six-inch "woofers" mean that bass response is somewhat restricted. When I need more "bells and whistles" (monitor sends, phantom power, more sophisticated EQ), I plug in a separate mixer to provide them. It's a jury-rig expedient, but workable.
Allen Hopkins
Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
Natl Triolian Dobro mando
Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
H-O mandolinetto
Stradolin Vega banjolin
Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
Flatiron 3K OM
It can work OK for small gigs. Separate acoustic amps can, in effect, function very much like a small PA. They do need to be acoustic amps, however... these have separate tweeters and LF drivers + crossover and are designed for a clear, crisp relatively accurate sound. Standard electric amps tend to have only one driver and are very 'colored' in the sound they produce (intentionally so). These tend to sound pretty bad if used as a PA.
I have personally never really liked the sound of the Fender Passport systems I've heard, incidentally. I always though the Yamaha Stagepass options were audibly superior. Much cleaner and with better headroom.
Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
Northfield Big Mon #127
Ellis F5 Special #288
'39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.
Allen, thanks for the link. I didn't get that til I dumped my buffer. Some nice deals there.
Ed, if you're considering using existing acoustic amps for a PA, let me make a suggestion:
Instead of everybody having their own, simplify your life by gaining unified control over the system: Use two acoustic amps, which are basically nothing more than eleborate powered speakers anyway, and make them 'slave amps' to a good quality mixer.
Go back to what I said earlier about having all the inputs going to a mixer and that output to the amp. (It was one of the few things I said that they all agreed with! LOL). Set the amps to 'flat response' and run cables from left and right out of the mixer to the two amps. You now have a small PA that uses the amps you own, plus you have more than enough money to invest in a quality mixer that will serve you for life, and you don't have all the problems of everybody twiddling their own knobs.
I think it's a better idea than an inexpensive PA. It might even be something Tony would have thought up!
Dedicated Ovation player
Avid Bose user
One of my bandmates has a Peavy Escort. It has worked very well. The 300 watts is powerful enough for small - medium venues. Four channels have XLR/1/4" inputs and it has a fifth channel with RCA inputs. I ran a line from my acoustic amp to the fifth channel and it worked well. The model we have also has RCA outputs that we use to the send the entire mix to a amp as a monitor.
Wow, I wish I would have thought of that Tim. I totally agree with the unified sound theory. I personally have never experienced a balanced sounding band with their own amps, only the opposite. Everybody seems to be deaf to their instrument/voice so it's tough to self regulate. So all that would be needed for Ed would be a mixer.....brilliant, get 'er done.
My $.02... I don't think using acoustic amps as a substitute PA is a great idea, unless it's just for a few months of "test drive" for a band that may not hold together.
Even with the unified sound theory approach -- a mixer driving the amps through their (hopefully) FX send/return inputs -- you've still got the problem that people tend to place these amps as if they were electric guitar amps: on the floor, behind the musicians. That's a recipe for feedback hell, if there is a vocal mic. And yet, the amps have to face forward to serve the audience. Worse yet, that low position means you're blasting the people in the front rows, while those further back in the audience can't hear much.
There is a reason why a conventional PA system puts the speakers high up on stands (for more even area coverage), and forward of the band (for feedback control).
As much as I'm not a fan of the Passport or StagePas all-in-one compact PA's, I think someone new to running a band PA would be better served with one of those setups, instead of trying to jury-rig something from band members' acoustic amps. Unless it's just a trial run for a new band, to avoid spending on a PA right away. Then sure, try it and see how it works. Just be aware of the drawbacks. Maybe use one acoustic amp just as a vocal monitor, placed in front of the mic to control feedback, and all the other acoustic amps angled away from the vocal mic's pickup pattern. It might work... maybe...
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
I agree, but there is NO free lunch. And I think Tim was thinking like I was, how to do this the best/cheapest way possible. And you do learn a lot when you do this. I'm always about how to use existing gear and take it to the band level.
Yeah, they are probably not all the same acoustic amp, so they won't sound matched. I was taking it for granted that you wouldn't leave them behind you like typical amps, you'd put them out in front of you. So it's good you brought that up. Even on chairs are better than sitting on the floor out in front. But this kind of lo buck approach will get you by that first couple of gigs, which are the most dangerous for band cohesion. There are several "speed bumps" to band cohesion, and those should be factored into investment into a PA.
Not everybody wants to have a PA laying about that's not being used. And no matter if it's only been used a couple of times, you won't be able to turn it over for anywhere close to what you paid for it. And after you have worked together for a while, I think you'll get a better idea of what you want. I learned what components work for scaling up and down according to the gig.
Those are all good things to point out. All the usual advice applies: speakers away from mics, up off the floor, all that. I think it can be done with a little work. As I mentioned earlier, If I were Ed I'd be more concerned about the band lasting than the gear. The only thing is that you want to get a good enough sound that you get re-booked. It's something I'd try first before taking it on stage. You definitely don't want to figure this all out at showtime. Like a lot of us, I started out with the most cobbled together mish-mash of equipment possible. I don't do that anymore, but I did get started. The whole idea is far from optimal, but I could see getting started this way.
Dedicated Ovation player
Avid Bose user
Tim, using two amps as "powered speakers" is genius.
We played at a music-oriented church service this morning, and the sound guy there recommended we use either a "powered mixer to speaker combo" or a "mixer to powered speakers" combo (which is what the church had, and it sounded pretty good). It seems that the one thing almost everyone has recommended is the use of a mixer.
The other guitarist & I still had a hard time hearing each other today though we were much closer together.
c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
"What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
"Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
Think Hippie Thoughts...
Gear: The Current Cast of Characters
In a situation like that photo with no monitors and (I assume?) two main speakers ahead of you and facing the audience, one trick that can work is to "toe in" the main speakers a little towards the band. Not too much, because it compromises coverage for the audience, but you can get a little bleed off the side of the speakers so you can hear yourselves better.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
I would suggest a different stage plot. You two guitars next to each other, the two singers next to each other. Being on opposite sides of the stage with no monitors is really tough. I always need to be next to the bass player no matter what. If the bass player and I can't hear each other we are both in a world of hurt. It's also nice to be close so you can say something in the ear out of earshot of the mic's.
If that was the room you were playing in, it is quite challenging. Lots of hard surfaces..... resonant spaces..... very little acoustic 'damping' (absorbers). A lot of bodies helps in that situation.... preferably live ones
Getting a nice sound, adequate levels and avoiding feedback is always an issue in environments like that. I think we need a new pressure group: Pickers for Good Acoustic Environments.
Gibson F5 'Harvey' Fern, Gibson F5 'Derrington' Fern
Distressed Silverangel F 'Esmerelda' aka 'Maxx'
Northfield Big Mon #127
Ellis F5 Special #288
'39 & '45 D-18's, 1950 D-28.
That room makes me cringe.
You were closer together than usual? Really? I would have said you were spread out way too far for playing in a room like that. Try having the instruments next to each other and get in tighter. Personally, I'd like to see you take up half that space with a set up like you're using. On a proper stage with a line of monitors you can do a lot more, but under those circumstances you need to make things as easy as you can. Get in close and stay close is my philosophy.
You can toe-in the speakers for better coverage. Since the instruments have pickups that's a real blessing. It looks like you only have two vocal mics. I would recommend getting those on stands rather than hand held. In acoustically tough environments you need to keep those mics steady. You don't want them moving around even a little since you can pick up all kinds of reflections. Get them in one place where they work well and keep them there.
The others may disagree with this one, but I hate folding chairs for performers. It puts the mics too low. Try to sit on tall stools if you can't stand. Just my two cents.
Are you the guy in the white shirt or the black?
Last edited by Tim2723; Jul-29-2013 at 9:00am.
Dedicated Ovation player
Avid Bose user
Curious... why would the mics be too low, as long as appropriate shortie mic stands and booms are used? Are you thinking floor reflections? That can sometimes be a problem when recording (solved by throwing a small rug down), but I haven't run into problems doing live sound reinforcement.
I think the one big advantage of tall stools (or playing standing up) is presentation for the audience. They can see you better, especially if you're not on a platform or elevated stage.
On the other hand, a standard folding chair has some advantages over a stool. I can place a printed set list on the floor and still read it, for one thing. It's usually easy to find spare folding chairs supplied at the venues we play, so we don't have to bring our own. And when we do have to bring our own chairs to the gig, folding chairs fit better in the car than folding stools. Comfortable folding stools tend to be on the bulky side.
There are some ergonomic advantages too. Sitting on a standard low chair allows thigh support of the mandolin, like the way these guys are doing it:
Also check out the way Thile sits in his YouTube video playing the Bach E Major Prelude. There are stools with foot-rests that would allow bringing your knees up, but now we're getting into specialized (and usually bulky/heavy) stools that I just don't want to carry to the gig.
Anyway, I don't find any particular PA-related problems with playing seated on a folding chair, other than having to be careful not to brush the clip-on mic clamp against my right leg. When using external mics, I have 3-section K&M mic stands with short booms that work fine at a low position.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
Quick addition to the above comments: One thing I do dislike about the way some people are mic'd when playing on folding chairs, is when the band or the sound company uses standard two-piece, tall mic stands and long booms, with the boom angled down towards the player's instrument at 45 degrees.
That just makes for a distracting "forest of mic stands" effect and blocks the audience's view of the musicians. It looks unprofessional (IMO). With the right hardware for the job, low mic position isn't distracting. With clip-on mics or pickups, there is no distraction at all.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
I also dislike the distracting forest of mic stands, but I don't like a clip-on mic, either. I want to be able to move the instrument in relation to the mic, so some sort of stand is required. For seated gigs, I keep a micro stand and mini boom handy. Works really well and is minimally intrusive. The bulk of the apparatus is below knee level--seated--with just the end of the boom and the mic reaching up to the sound hole. And the solid cast-iron base occupies almost no floor space.
Just one guy's opinion
www.guitarfish.net
My pa was never small, but in his current state he's very portable. God rest his soul.
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Lyon & Healy • Wood • Thormahlen • Andersen • Bacorn • Yanuziello • Fender • National • Gibson • Franke • Fuchs • Aceto • Three Hungry Pit Bulls
On the subject of small, unobtrusive mic stands for seated players... the best setup I've seen for "invisible" external mics are the Sennheiser and Schoeps accessories for their modular small condensers. The mic head can be detached from the XLR body, and a long/thin tube is used in the middle that carries the electrical connection. Here's the Schoeps version:
http://www.schoeps.de/en/products/rc
Sennheiser has a wider range of different tube lengths, clamps and weighted base for their 8040 small condenser (click the "Accessories" link at the left):
http://en-us.sennheiser.com/condense...brass-mkh-8040
I've seen this type of mic used a few times in YouTube video productions where musicians are playing "live" for something like the Transatlantic Sessions, and they want to keep the mics unobtrusive for the cameras. Very slick, although not cheap... especially the Schoeps mics. The Sennheiser 8040 mic and accessories are less expensive, but still pretty stratospheric for us weekend warrior types (although that 8040 is a great mic). Me, I'm using the shortie (3-section) K&M mic stand with their short boom, until I hit the lottery.
I know this is some high-end stuff here, but if the open-ended topic is "small portable PA," then your mic stand can't get much smaller and more portable than this.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
I've been using these for years; two of 'em always in the back seat of my Honda Element. At $14 a pop ($16 here with sales tax), I consider them bargains.
Please note: not a sales pitch for WalMart.
Allen Hopkins
Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
Natl Triolian Dobro mando
Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
H-O mandolinetto
Stradolin Vega banjolin
Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
Flatiron 3K OM
I've cut down my standard mic stands, because short stands by the same manufacturers are almost twice as much! go figgur. Regular stands are made to overhead mic drums, so I cut a foot off of the telescoping bottoms and off the booms. This way instead of coming in sideways to get to the proper height, you can put them directly in front of you and telescope them to the proper height. This drastically cuts down on the forest.
I don't do chairs either. I'm sorry, but there's been all this discussion about stage garb, well sitting down is just plain 'ol boring. And talk about a lot of extra weight and clutter to haul! Then you add music stands, and you might as well erect a wall in front of you and the audience. Seems mighty silly to be talking about portable PA, when stands, chairs and stuff are probably twice the weight and 4x's the volume as like a StagePass. Just my humble not worth 2c opinion.
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