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Thread: Guitar to octave-mandolin

  1. #1
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    A few weeks ago I came across an early ‘70’s era Aria dreadnought-style, 6-string guitar and a local flea market. Some of you may remember the early Aria instruments. A lot of them were copies of major USA brands – in fact I think Gibson sued Aria also (like Ibanez) over a Les Paul copy.

    Anyway this one I found looks liked a D-18 copy and is well-made – solid birch back/sides, mahogany neck, spruce top, rosewood finger board, bridge and headstock inlay with clean triple binding and three rings around the sound hole.

    So I bought it pretty cheap and going to use it as practice instrument. I plan to convert it to an 8 string mando-something -- I'm thinking octave mandolin.

    Last week I removed all the hardware, bridge screws and the nut.

    I plan to fill the guitar tuner holes with mahogany plugs. Then after leveling I will glued on and trim up a fresh rosewood veneer and cut in a small MOP inlay.

    I will refinish this later after drilling new holes for mandolin tuners - I have a jig that I made for that.

    I also plan to reinforced the old bridge by removing the the screws (they had a bridge like the ‘60’s Gibson’s) – I will put a thin maple cleat under the bridge plate and secure it with two slim bolts with nuts/washers – in the old screw holes. These will be recovered by MOP dots.

    I will make a new string hole on each end of the existing 6 to accommodate 2 new strings. A set of 8 rosewood bridge pins will secure the strings.

    I am shaping a new nut from a bone guitar blank with 4 courses and making a new compensated bridge out of rosewood. My idea right now is to have the new mando bridge saddle slip into the slot on the old guitar bridge. See pic.

    My only really big question is what range should I choose? I am leaning toward an octave mandolin – even though the instrument will have a body larger than a mandocello.

    My plan is to by a set of light gauge D’Addario’s for a 12 string guitar and use the first four sets (i.e., the low E’s, A’s, D’s and G’s). I would tune these to an octave below the mandolin – starting with the second G below middle C.

    I would think mandocello strings would be too much for this body design. Anyone have a better idea?

    I will post more pics when finished.
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    Bernie
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    Registered User Frank Ford's Avatar
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    I made #a new bridge for the one I did some years ago, and so the strings would line up correctly, I configured it like this:



    The whole story:

    Eight String Conversion

    Currently this instrument has a new owner who strung it as a mandocello, and the tension doesn't seem to be a problem.

    Cheers,

    Frank Ford
    FRETS.COM
    Gryphon Stringed Instruments
    My Home Shop Pages

  3. #3
    Registered User groveland's Avatar
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    Perhaps 5 courses on that neck? Would it handle the tension?

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  5. #4
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Frank Ford:I made #a new bridge for the one I did some years ago, and so the strings would line up correctly, I configured it like this
    Thanks for the comments - - I really like your web site.

    Yes I remember that conversion that you did and it was just referred to here on the Message Board in another string.

    In fact your conversion project was the basis of my thinking this would be a neat way get started working on insturments. #But I did not want to do my learning on a Martin!


    Actually I do have another rosewood bridge blank similar to the one that is on the guitar now -- do you think that placing all eight strings in a single row would not work at all?

    If so I guess I'll try to remove the old bridge and use the pattern you outlined

    Problem is I think it is the bridge shown in the picture is clearly not the original one. #I think it might be very hard to remove. #If it is like the nut then whoever worked on it might have glued it on with epoxy or urethane bond not hide glue or tightbond!

    Getting the nut off so as not to damage the neck and fretboard was difficult.
    Bernie
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  6. #5
    Registered User Arnt's Avatar
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    I built a guitar bouzouki recently. The scale on this one is 645 mm (close to 25,4”) scale, and tuned FCGD low to high, or one whole step down from the most common tuning for these instruments. This was the customer’s choice; he uses it in a duo with a Hardanger fiddle player, and according to him this tuning works well with in this situation. The string pairs were specified to be .042/.032/.017/.012 gauge which gives a total string pull of 68.12 kg in his preferred tuning. A guitar tuned to concert pitch with the same scale will have a string load of 73.51 kg with light strings and 79.42 kg with medium strings, so with that in mind I built this instrument a bit lighter. However, the G-strings felt a bit slack, so with a bit of experimentation he ended up with .022 nickel wounds for that pair, and phosphor bronze for the other wound pairs. Maartin Allcock, who plays a Sobell ”bouzar” also uses nickel wounds for this pair, and as I understand, as do many other guitar bouzouki players. If you plan to put in an piezo transducer or a soundhole pickup the advantage with the nickel wounds for the G’s is that they give a better balance with the rest of the strings.

    One thing to consider with a guitar / bouzouki conversion is that the neck will be quite a bit wider than normal for these instruments, thus some of the finger positions and stretches may become a bit hard to do. The nut on my instrument is 36 mm wide; a normal steel string guitar nut is in the 43 – 45 mm range.

    Here are a couple of pictures:



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  7. #6
    Registered User Arnt's Avatar
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    Here is a closer shot of the bridge:
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  8. #7
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Arnt: Here is a closer shot of the bridge...
    Thanks so much for the pictures and the advice. You have a beautiful insturment there.

    The instrument I am building will not be a high end model but my reason for doing it is to develop woodworking skills that I will use later for other projects.

    Thanks again for your insights.
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    I recently bought this guitar-conversion OM off eB*y:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250112358168

    Decent job. #The real problem I find is that the neck is a bit too wide to make a good OM.
    EdSherry

  10. #9
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Arnt: Here is a closer shot of the bridge...
    Thanks so much for the pictures and the advice. You have a beautiful insturment there.

    The instrument I am building will not be a high end model but my reason for doing it is to develop woodworking skills that I will use later for other projects.

    Thanks again for your insights.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  11. #10
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    Ed Sherry: I recently bought this guitar-conversion OM off eB*y:
    Beautiful insturment. #I take it you have tuned it as a octave mando whereas the original owner had it a mandocello? #

    The nut on my 1936 K1 mandocello is 1.54" and on my 1961 Hummmingbird guitar 1.69".

    This insturment I am building now will be the same at 1.68"

    When you say "too wide" for an octive mandolin what bothers you most? #

    Have you ever played a Gibson mandocello to compare it with? #I say this because if you are used to the mandolin the mandocello seems a bit akward too. #

    But it is possible to get used to it.

    Thanks for sharing the pics. I was very interested in the pattern of holes used on the bridge.
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  12. #11
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    Bernie -- I have a bunch of "real" (not converted) OMs, citterns and zouks from various makers, and the necks on the four-course ones are significantly narrower than the converted Alvarez. #(I haven't measured it.) #The converted Alvarez also has relatively wide string spacing. #

    I'm sure that there'd be nothing wrong with it if I got used to it, but I find it awkward to try to adjust my left- and right-hand playing style swapping out (as I do) among a number of different instruments.

    That said, the Alvarez has a nice full sound very different from most of my other instruments. #The large guitar-shaped body seems to me to have a lot to do with it.

    I have a lovely-sounding and great-playing smaller-bodied guitar-shaped OM made by a (now retired) local luthier, Dave Melly, that I bought locally second-hand. #I tune it down to DAEB (a whole step above a mandocello), and frequently capo at the seventh fret to play OM lines. #It has a much narrower neck than the Alvarez.

    I've played half a dozen Gibson mandocellos over the years, some H-bodied, and a couple of Ks. #I never found one that jumped out at me as being (a) playable, (b) good sounding and © affordable. #(Two out of the three, yes; all three, no.)

    I really haven't tried tuning the Alvarez to mandocello tuning. #It came with a strange set of string gauges (zouk-like with octaves on the bottom strings), which I futzed with for a while before stringing it up as a stock OM. #I may try mandocello tuning at some point. #

    If I were doing the project myself (which is unlikely -- I'm not a woodworker), I'd consider converting a guitar to a ten-string (five-course) instrument. #I have a couple of five-course citterns that I tune DGDAE, and I think a guitar conversion would do well (though I'd be wary of string tension on the top).

    I also bought this one off eB*y a while back. #The "transgendered" dsecription is quite accurate:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160095261550

    It's a hoot, and sounds pretty good (for what it is!), but I have to get a different (12-string) tailpiece for it (the tailpiece that it came with is a converted 6-string "kludge" that doesn't work well).

    Good luck with the conversion project.



    EdSherry

  13. #12
    Oscar Stern s11141827's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar to octave-mandolin

    Actually Magma makes a Fifths Tuned Nylon Classical Guitar string set the GCT-Cello String set. It's tuned C, G, D, A, E, B which gives you a fun 5 Octave Range. The strings are Nylon so the tension is going to pretty low & it won't damage your Guitar. A trick is to tune those thin strings up gently, & make sure you apply enough graphite to the bridge & nut. Magma put alot of thought into making strings that can tune super low w/o being too thick.

  14. #13
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guitar to octave-mandolin

    Just a note that this thread's a hoary antique, 15 years old. Some of the posters, including Bernie D, are still around, but may have moved on to other projects.

    Jus' sayin'.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

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