Yes, as the metal strings slap against the metal frets it sounds a bit like a pile driver, or a sledge hammer driving a wedge into a round of firewood... at least it does when I play
Yes, as the metal strings slap against the metal frets it sounds a bit like a pile driver, or a sledge hammer driving a wedge into a round of firewood... at least it does when I play
Yes they are (in 4/4 anyway). They are called backbeats but are indeed downbeats as any basic rhythm book will explain...Originally Posted by
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
johnmcgann.com
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Youtube live mando
Err... that could be confusing when communicating in a band context. I've always thought of those as backbeats (speaking as an ex-drummer here). If a soloist says they're going to come in on the downbeat, and we're playing in 4/4, I wouldn't expect them to start on the 2 or the 4. It would be the first beat of the measure. From answers.com (I know, not a definitive source but it was quick):Yes they are (in 4/4 anyway). They are called backbeats but are indeed downbeats as any basic rhythm book will explain...
Not to be argumentative... this would just confuse the heck out of me, if someone used the term that way (but then we all know drummers confuse easily).
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
Curtis go to http://www.musicmoose.org/ its free
and a very good site
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Can you cite one, 'cuz that's contrary to every theory book and music dictionary I've read.Yes they are (in 4/4 anyway). They are called backbeats but are indeed downbeats as any basic rhythm book will explain...
Here is a direct link to Anthony's lesson on the chop:
http://www.musicmoose.org/index.p....temid=9
He sums it up pretty well, especially when he says you have to hit the strings really hard, although I think he is holding back a little, maybe for the sake of the video shoot.
Good lesson. Well presented. I like it! A few dozen more like that and I might learn how to play mandolin!
Now you're arguing semantics and as someone pointed out if you try communicating like that with other musicians you will cause massive confusion as some people feel this music in 2/4 with eighth notes as the beat and some in 4/4 with quarter notes as the beat.Yes they are (in 4/4 anyway). They are called backbeats but are indeed downbeats as any basic rhythm book will explain...
Gentlemen, Start Your Engines...
Semantics are all about being able distinguish one thing from another, even though some folks may thing that the items are the same an interchangeable. Otherwise a chicken and and a chickenhawk are the same critter.
No, semantics are keeping an argument going just for the sake of arguing and using words as an excuse.
Can we agree that even if written in 4/4 the actual PERCEIVED beat is beats 1 and 3? Does anyone tap their foot all 4 quarter notes? No. So the downbeats are actually beats 1 and 3 and the music is written in 4/4 with eighth note prevalence for the sake of readers. 2/4 with sixteenth notes is probably more accurate but also a bit more taxing to read.
And yes, musicmoose is a great site.
Semantics is the study of meaning. To use words which mean the exact opposite of what you are trying to say is insane. #NOTE TO EVERYONE: #Buy a dictionary, stop being so defensive about being #corrected, admit mistakes and get on with it. Sheesh! #Grr!No, semantics are keeping an argument going just for the sake of arguing and using words as an excuse.
Can we agree that even if written in 4/4 the actual PERCEIVED beat is beats 1 and 3? Does anyone tap their foot all 4 quarter notes? No. So the downbeats are actually beats 1 and 3 and the music is written in 4/4 with eighth note prevalence for the sake of readers. 2/4 with sixteenth notes is probably more accurate but also a bit more taxing to read.
And yes, musicmoose is a great site.
"I'm goin to the races, to see my pony run..."
Could you post an mp3? #I went to the music store and asked the guy to demo it, but he's a guitar player and it was just chords, no thump. I also want to hear a bark that some folks say happens when you overdrive the top, if possible. thanks!
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Sometimes it might and then again it minght not.
A fiddle tune written out at the 8th note level - 8 eighth notes to the bar - is actually 2/2 time. #4/4 also has 8 eighth notes to the bar, but that doesn't mean it is the same groove.
4/4: 1 # 2 # 3 # 4
2/2: 1 # & # 2 # &
4/4: 1-& 2-& 3-& 4-&
2/2: 1-a-&-ah #2-a-&-ah
2/4: 1=a=&=ah #2=a=&=ah #(written at the 16th note level)
4/4: four groups of two 8ths
2/2: two groups of four 8ths
2/4: two groups of four 16ths
Bluegrass band playing a fiddle tune like "Whiskey Before Breakfast" is doing it with a 2/4 or 2/2 groove. Fairport Convention doing one of those tunes is usually a 4/4 with four groups of 16ths.
Django plays those gypsy swing tunes as 4/4. It's not Boom-chuck boom-chuck, but rather chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk. When the bassist starts a walking bass on "Foggy Mountain Special", he's pushed the tune into a 4/4 groove.
NH
We can argue ad nauseum about stuff we basically agree on. Here is how I deal with it:
1) Fiddle tunes are eighth note streams.
2) Alternate picking dictates downstrokes on the DOWNBEATS and upstrokes on the UPBEATS. Alternate picking is not the only path, but a good default for most purposes.
3) I hear bluegrass counted 1 2 3 4. The mando chop on beats 2 and 4 (the back beats) and the bass on 1 and 3.
4) Most (not all) fiddle tune books, American as well as Irish/Scottish, are written in 4/4 as eighth notes, not 2/4 as 16th notes. Classical musicians would probably notate the music in 2/2! Cut time is "felt in two".
5) 2/4 as 16th notes would indicate the mando is playing on the "and" of 1 and 2. I don't think this jives with reality as I percieve it.
6) Call it your momma if you want to. Just because I hear it and teach it this way (actually, it is taught this way at Berklee as well) doesn't mean the world has to conform to it
7) However you write it, if your time stinks, you stink. The reality is in the playing, not the notation.
No problem, it is common practice and I have a few on my shelf:
1. Modern Reading Text in 4/4 Louis Bellson
2. Time for the Future Bret Willmott
3. Contemporary Jazz/Rock Rhythms David Chesky (refers to 'on the beat' and 'off the beat' as the downbeat/upbeat combo)
4. Rhythmic Training Robert Starer "quarter note pulse-each unit is called a beat- two eighths beginning on a pulse divided into downbeat and upbeat."
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
johnmcgann.com
myspace page
Youtube live mando
I think the only real argument (or rather, puzzlement) was about referring to anything other than the first beat of the measure (regardless of what instrument is playing it) as the "downbeat." Does Berklee actually teach that the downbeat, as most musicians use the term, isn't on the first beat of the measure -- the "one"?
That's a rather narrow use of the term "downbeat" and I don't think it's what most of us are referring to here (I could be wrong).No problem, it is common practice and I have a few on my shelf:
1. Modern Reading Text in 4/4 Louis Bellson
2. Time for the Future Bret Willmott
3. Contemporary Jazz/Rock Rhythms David Chesky (refers to 'on the beat' and 'off the beat' as the downbeat/upbeat combo)
4. Rhythmic Training Robert Starer "quarter note pulse-each unit is called a beat- two eighths beginning on a pulse divided into downbeat and upbeat."
Amen to that.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
"The downbeat" in general refers to the unsyncopated quarter note pulse, be it 1, 2, 3, 4 (or 11 or 13 if you like). I'm surprised at how people seem unaware of this usage- I've heard it since the '60's! Guitar lessons, conducting classes, arranging, ear training, you name it...it doesn't ONLY mean "beat one".
As in "played on the downbeat". That doesn't have to mean beat one! We generally call beat one "beat one" which seems logical enoughWe also say things like "the and of 2" to mean the upbeat after the 2nd downbeat of a bar...comes in handy for teaching rhythmic reading skills..."beat 3" would be shorhand for the DOWNBEAT on beat 3.
"The downbeat" is also used to refer to the 1st full measure of a tune, sure. However, enough tunes have pickup measures that to imply "the downbeat" is where the playing starts is just wrong in those cases.
We have another saying (especially with odd time signatures or wobbly players): "Where's 'one'?"
"The downbeat" is also used to refer to the time the gig starts among 'working musicians' :"The downbeat is at 8" which implies " get there in time to set up and tune up etc. because we hit at 8pm"
"Upbeats" are the "ands" in the count one and two and three and four and. In alternate picking, we play the downbeats with downstrokes and upbeats with upstrokes.
I don't think it's "narrow" at all, in fact, how would you describe the difference between notes on the beat and off the beat in a more eloquent fashion?
Again, I'm mystified by these common usages seeming new to people, as I've heard them all my life...and I don't mean just at music school, I've been a player for 40 years (wholly smokes, to see THAT in print)...
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
johnmcgann.com
myspace page
Youtube live mando
Curtis wrote, "Can we agree that even if written in 4/4 the actual PERCEIVED beat is beats 1 and 3? Does anyone tap their foot all 4 quarter notes? No. So the downbeats are actually beats 1 and 3 ....."
Do you tap your foot on the 1 and 3?
Just curious....
Many do. I watch guys at jams, and since my earliest days, I have always tapped on 2 & 4, but a LOT of people tap on 1 & 3. If you don't believe me, watch people clap along with a live band. They are invariably on 1 & 3.
"I thought I knew a lot about music. Then you start digging and the deeper you go, the more there is."~John Mellencamp
"Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann
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Just for the record, the use of downbeat to refer to the accented beat, regardless of the time signature, is not at issue.
Yes, you can play a zillion rapid-fire upbeat-downbeat pairs in between the 1 and the 2 in 4/4 time presto if you got the chops, and I agree that it's a perfectly valid use of the term.
But that's not the context we're talking about.
That doesn't make clear the role of the chop chord as it was described. In that context, the downbeat and the backbeat are widely understood.
The chop is usually played on the backbeats...the 2 and the 4 (the 4 four would also be the up-beat for the next measure.) In that context, to call those beats where you play the chop the 'downbeat' is just incorrect.
To say that "in 4/4 time they are backbeats and also downbeats" is plain confusing (though I know what you mean now that see how you're using the term), and it's not always true ('cuz, heck you might be playing syncopated triplets on the '2' or something!), and doesn't help in context.
In the role we are discussing, backbeats and downbeats are opposites. Chops are usually played on the backbeats. Anyone disagree?
I do (at least partially)....the way I've learned/always thought of it 1, 2, 3, 4 are "downbeats", the "and's" in between are "upbeats", when I hear the term "backbeat" I think about an emphasis on the 2 & 4 downbeats, as in rock & roll, R&B, funk etc.
If you play "1 e-and-a 2 e-and-a 3 e-and-a 4 -e-and-a'" then the 'ands' have a different roll. You can subdivide the beat a zillion times and accent whatever pulse you like. And you can call all the accented/unaccented pulses downbeats and upbeats, yes. Again, that doesn't help illustrate the roll of the chop.
The 'backbeat' you think about in rock and funk is CALLED that because the BACKBEATS-- 2 and 4 -- are emphasized!
It's simpler to speak in terms of simple straight time to communicate the roll of the chop...or the snare...or any other BACKBEAT rhythm.....
An 'up-beat' by definition, by the way, is an unemphasized beat that anticipates a downbeat, so in simple 4/4 time, beat 4 is the up-beat...it's when the conductor would raise the baton UP again in anticipation of bringing DOWN on the 1 of the next measure. (on beats 2 and three, by the way, the baton moves side to side...one of the few things I remember from college music class.)
Of course we're agreed on that - it's just that some of us are saying those 2 & 4 beats can be referred to as downbeats as well. #As far as a conductor's baton motion, you wouldn't call 2 & 3 "sidebeats"....and aren't the upbeat "and's", according to your definition, unemphasized and anticipating the 1, 2, 3, 4 downbeats??
Better to forget all this and simply say (conventionally) chop on 2 and 4, no?
Here's Wiki on the term, which (regardless of more specialized meanings when we get into "pulses" within the measure and such), is the way I understand it, and the way I've always communicated about it with other musicians over the last 30 years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downbeat
Anyone have the Oxford Dictionary of Music, or Grove Music? What do they say?
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
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