1924 a4 snakehead sighted

[24loar]

I got to play a nice snakehead A4 at Lark Street Music today. Very resonant, great sound. No pickguard is the only issue. Otherwise 7 out of 10 condition. Is $6500 a decent price?

[Matt Bowe]

http://www.larkstreetmusic.com/list/pict/SNEAK.jpg
Decent for you or decent for Buzzy?
Here's a link to a Message Board thread regarding current Loar-era snakehead pricing:
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=42930

[24loar]

Funny! I meant is that the going price? I might buy but don't want to overpay. I googled and found one in Brooklyn with Virzi for $8500 so this looks like a decnt price, no? They just don't come up for sale that often.

[Dave Reiner]

$6500 is a bit high without pickguard and rated 7/10. # With PG and 9/10 I could see it...

That Brooklyn site you mention has sold the A-4 with Virzi but also has a Loar era F-4 with VIrzi for a mere $16,500. #Judge for yourself what that means about their pricing.

Dave

[Cornelius Morris]

Edited to remove strong and misplaced sentiments.

[24loar]

I can't comment on the previous remarks one way or another. However, I have not seen many of these snakeheads come up for sale, period! They are quite rare and the one at Lark St. sounded so nice. I'm a bit short of cash at the moment but would have jumped on that one. I wanted to seek forum advice as to recent prices and it looks like the Lark St one is reasonable given other sales. Certainly a pristine one will command more money. Ultimately it is the buyer not the dealer that detemines the price. If you pay... then that is what the instrument is worth to you. With few exceptions, I have not witnessed downward pricing in the vintage market. I haven't shopped for mandolins until recently but I still have a letter from Mandolin Bros. where they listed a Loar F-5 for $7,500 back in the early 80's. many thought that was outrageous at the time. Dealers ask what the market will bear and adjust appropriately.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I paid $1500 for a snake A4 Virzi in 1984 and later sold it for $1800. #I thought that was ridiculous. #The real problem right now is the difference in price between a clean snake A or A2, a snake A2Z, and a snake A4 virzi. #Something is going to come down, or something else is going up. #There is too much difference based solely on the rarity of some minor details.

Example, why is a '23 paddlehead A4 in mint condition worth 1/3 of a 23 snake A4 virzi.

[AlanN]

Timing is everything. I was in Buzzy's Albany shop in 1998. I was putzing around, he said wait right there, brings out a case that has a 24 Loar in it that had 3 wood screws holding the neck on from the back. It was for sale at 40 or so.

Somebody ultimately bought it, sent it off to Magic Steve, and the rest, as thaey say, is history.

[Glassweb]

For me, the finest Gibson oval hole A models are the 1923-1924 A2Z and A4... both snakeheads. I've owned many of these and other snakes (A2's... A1's and straight A's) over the years and I have found them to be consistently excellent sounding, with beautiful craftsmanship and very fast and playable necks. Some are just spectacular sounding and frequently kick butt over F4s. I feel these are VERY different instruments from the paddle head A models, and it shouldn't be surprising that this superior design parted not long after Loar did. As such, I feel ALL truss-rodded Loar era round hole mandolins are extremely undervalued... but of course, that's changing quickly! By the way, I've also owned a couple of A4 snakes with Virzis and they did not match up with the non-Virzi examples... not to my ears anyway.

[bradeinhorn]

i agree much of what glassweb said. i remember when i bought a snakehead (which unfortunately had to be sold for the daley) i played it in line with 6 paddleheads a-1, a-1, a-2, a-3, a-3 and a-4 and an F-2 and F-4 (both early twenties) and the A model snakehead had a completely different feel and tone. much more complex yet refined with a ton more volume and cut than any of the others. of course the neck was considerably more playable as well. incredibly, in my experience, I've seen a lot of the best tone and volume come out of the a models and junior snakeheads...just mho.

[danb]

I had a wonderful '22 snakehead plain brown A, and also a virzi '25 a4. Both were quite amazing in their own ways. The virzi I'd describe as "Ethereal", a highly unusual sustain and the tone was quite mesmerizing. The '22 was very loar-like, lots of midrange though not quite in the Loar ballpark on the G string/bass response.

here's the '22 snake:

Mp3 clip of 71261

Here's my old virzi A4:

Mp3 clip of 81564

[danb]

Hopefully that shows kind of what I mean by that "Shimmer" or "Ethereal" sound. Much sustain, much more than you ever hear on another mandolin. By contrast, a virzi on an F5 seems to work more like a compressor/limiter on the high overtones to my ear

[danb]

Same tune on March 31 Virzi loar 76547

[uncle ken]

Dan, I really loved playing your A4 w/virzi at Bakersfield. It inspired me to look for a snakehead of my own.

The Loar clip really jumps out at you compared to the other two with the clarity and presence of the tone.

[Dave Reiner]

Rather strong from David. What exactly does he mean by "Judge for yourself what that means about their pricing"? #He's disparaging this dealer for, exactly, what? #And he knows exactly what about the circumstances of the deal? #The A4 Virzi snakehead (which I bought) has nothing to do with the F4 Virzi whose price he disapproves. #The A4 was sold on consignment; the seller asked for a price. #Period. #David has bought and sold many mandolins. #Some time ago he was buying Loar-era trussrod F4's as an investment for his children. #Good for him; this is a great country. #He has asked for a good price when selling, based on what he wanted to get. #He has offered a good price when buying, based on what he wanted to pay. #Has he ever told someone that they should offer him a whole lot less money for a mandolin that he was selling? #Who knows what are the circumstances behind the asking price of this particular A4? I don't, by the way. It might have been the only asset that the seller, who badly needed the money, had; on the other hand, it might have been a wealthy owner who knew that the last one of these very rare birds sold for something like $7200 some time ago, and who knew that a near-perfect (trust me on this; only a re-glued clean seam separation on the back) 1924 Virzi A4, with original perfect pickguard, bridge, tailpiece (mercifully unscrubbed), perfect buttons, perfect tuners, near-perfect case, gorgeous untouched finish, and heavenly tone, might not unreasonably be offered at the price. #And I thought it might not unreasonably be worth more or less that price in today's (benighted) vintage mandolin market. #

I teach for a living. #This cost me 1/5 of a year's salary. #David makes many, many times more as a lawyer than I do as a teacher. #Good for him. #I sold several things to pay for it (but I'm keeping my 1915 F4, which I also saved up for and sold things to buy). #I don't feel mistreated or swindled by the dealer; in fact, I can offer them nothing but praise for everything in the entire transaction. If the mandolin was offered at $500 less, or $1000 less, would that have been low enough to keep David from disparaging the dealer? #And would he have bought it at that price? #We complain on this forum that vintage mandolins cost too much. #Frank Wakefield told me (with some amazement) in 1978 that he had been offered $10,000 for his Loar! #I think that David's comment was unwarrented--especially since it was an insinuation.

Cornelius

Hi Cornelius-

I apologize for disparaging this dealer with respect to their pricing. #

They clearly specialize in rare and desirable instruments, and it sounds like you bought a fine mint '24 A-4 with Virzi at a fair price in today's market.

Regards,

Dave

P.S. You might have me confused with someone else; I'm not a lawyer, although I was a teacher for a number of years.

[Cornelius Morris]

Hello Dave.
Thanks for your note. I got a bit fierce in mine. My only point (and it could've been made much more briefly and calmly than I did) is that we can complain about prices (they're all too high!) but we should avoid insinuations about the seller (and consigner). Steve and the other folks at Retrofret have been exactly what we all hope for when we buy instruments online and on the phone. And they have a dangerous list of instruments. And I do have you mixed up with someone else. I too apologize, and you're a good guy for your post.

Cornelius

[Mandobar]

buzz at larkstreet is quite fond of vintage instruments. i think his pricing reflects his affinity for them.

[24loar]

Well, it' all academic. I went to see the A4 at Buzzy's and it was gone. In the end, the stuff is worth what somebody is willing to pay. I should have borrowed the funds.....