"f2" with reverse headstock

[laddy jota]

It was consistent with F-2's of the period because it was black?? I noticed a dozen problems with that instrument before the color. The dern head stock is backwards for one. This does not say much for Gibson employees.

[mrmando]

Hey, we have one Gibson employee who's in over his head. I don't know how that becomes a statement about ALL Gibson employees.

[bradeinhorn]

seriously...let's prevent the sweeping overgeneralizations off one guy's mistake. unfortunately, not everyone in the world is a mando-geek. though i agree he definately should have passed this question along.

[sgarrity]

That thing might have sat in the same room with a Gibson F2 once but that's about as close as it got! It just screams amateur FAKE.

[woodwizard]

Someone should ask Bob to send another email to her. One more detailed maybe to clarify things. Do you think Bob would do that? Or does he actually know what's going on due to his choice of words to her?

[MikeEdgerton]

I feel so silly. I just went through my archived mail and found the following e-mail reply from Gibson Customer Service that I got a few years ago regarding a bridge for a 60's B-15 (if I recall) flat top guitar... It was from Bob Burns. I sent my message from the link on the Gibson home page for Customer Service.



Hello Mike,

Thank you for contacting Gibson. For replacement parts and parts that are no longer in current production, we recommend the new, used and/or reproduction parts suppliers listed below –

Classic Ax: 1-800-254-8058 greg@classicax.com (vintage and new parts)

Valley Arts: 615-244-0252 (ext.5111 and 5112)

All Parts: 1-800-327-8942 www.allparts.com

Koz Axs Guitars 1-800-814-0432 www.kozaxs.com

Parts is Parts 1-800-590-0014 www.guitar-parts.com

Stewart-McDonald (OH): 1-800-848-2273 www.stewmac.com.

WD: 941-337-7575 www.wdmusicproducts.com


Best Regards,

Bob Burns
Gibson Customer Service
1-800-444-2766

[mrmando]

Bob knows it isn't his job to authenticate instruments. All he told the seller was "appears consistent." Everything else the seller has said is either an exaggeration, made up, or from a source other than Bob.

[f5loar]

It really concerns me Bob failed to see it did not have a truss rod from those photos. Bob really needed that 2nd opinion that day. But anyway there is a real black finish 1916 F2 on ebay now, item no. 270157671169. When you compare the two together I'm coming up with this: This one comes into a luthier not use to mandolin work with a trashed neck and back teens F2. So he hand makes a neck and hand carved back that is good enough to fit. He goes for a solid neck instead of 3 piece. Puts on a different fingerboard. The replacement of the back and neck does away with any original serial numbers. He refinishes it (something no one mentions that this thing has had a total refinish) to close to the original (minus the red finish usually found on the F2 back and sides)minus many other details and for some unforseen reason cuts the pattern backwards for the headstock and says what the heck looks good to me and slaps it on anyway. Buys some 70's parts for it and it's done. The only thing original is a refinished F2 top and sides. I see really good quality workmanship here. This was no first timer. Maybe a violin maker/luthier.
The finish looks great. Now if all this were true it would still be a $500 to $800 mandolin if it sounded decent.

[bradeinhorn]

but what about the rosette? is that right? and why no evidence of internal hole binding. you are saying all of that is replaced? and the mahog sides? why not just a complete copy? weren't they pretty common decades back?

[mrmando]

How does the scroll get reshaped during that process? And how does the soundhole get smaller? I have to agree about the finish work.

Note that both instruments have mahogany neck blocks, but on the '16 the rest of the side material is birch, whereas on the weird one the sides appear to be mahogany all the way around.

Heard back one more time from Bob. Says he can't access the Internet from work, so he can't look at the auction. (Good to know Gibson doesn't allow its employees to dink around on eBay all day like some of us do.) But he sent another e-mail to the person who originally asked him about this instrument (presumably, the seller) reminding them that Gibson does not authenticate instruments and if they want to know if it's real, they should ask Gruhn.

[bradeinhorn]

good. let's see if she actually updates it. my guess is no.

[jim simpson]

I wonder if it will reach the seller's minumum?

[mikeyes]

The bidding has ended due to an "error in listing." The mandolin police strike again (maniacal laughter ensues.)

[bradeinhorn]

respectable. wonder how and when it will next appear. maybe they should just put some electrical tape on the headstock.

[mrmando]

Enough electrical tape and no one will know it's backward!

[allenhopkins]

You know, if that were my instrument*, and I were trying to sell it**, I'd label it as a "mystery mandolin" and document all the discussion, dispute, questionable authentication, possible history and/or legend, etc. etc. I think there'd be some real interest from collectors in a mutant Gibson clone, with a checkered past and uncertain parentage. In any case, it would be quantum-ly more honest than trying to pass it off as a certified Gibson factory product. Supposedly there's a musical Moby Dick, an alleged example of the Gibson Moderne electric guitar, which was designed but probably never produced. It's supposed to be the prototype, and it's been floating around, constantly escalating in price, although its provenance is suspect. The controversy itself has added to its value. On a lesser scale, this mutant F-2 might get some "action" just because no one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it wasn't some weird early-'20's aberration from Kalamazoo.

* But, I'm glad it isn't!
** And, I'm glad I'm not!

And just a later thought: has there been any discussion of whether this is a decent instrument to play? Might be fun to take to jams and freak people out: "Jeez, what is that?"

[MikeEdgerton]

The mandolin police strike again (maniacal laughter ensues.)

It deserves a mugshot.

[bradeinhorn]

nice mugshot mike - what is it with F-2 models and controversy??? it's like they are just begging for it.

[mrmando]

A dendrochronologist could possibly take it apart, remove the finish, establish the age of the spruce tree and "prove" that it wasn't made in the '20s, as the hardware suggests. Not worth it, though.

The seller says it sounds great, but all sellers say that. Looks like it would be fun to try out.

[Big Joe]

The hardware does not suggest being made in the twenties, but rather the eighties. The tailpiece is a newer model, the bridge is certianly not original or from that era, and the tuners certainly don't appear to be from that vintage either. That about takes care of the hardware. There is no pickguard so that does not help. The age of the spruce is irrelevant since the top and back and neck are not carved properly for a Gibson F2 of any vintage and the sound hole is the wrong size and shape. Then there is the whole headstock thing. I don't even want to go down that road. The neck joint is wrong, and the inlay is most certainly not Gibson. I guess none of us were here at that time to authenticate it, but since nothing about it suggests it could be a Gibson there is little doubt as to its authenticity. It could have Gibson strings though. I have not investigated that . If it does not walk like a duck, quack like a duck, or squat like a duck, it's probably not a duck....unless it is from AFLAC .

[MikeEdgerton]

Maybe they'll include a Gibson pick when they sell it as well.

[mrmando]

Let's not forget that the case doesn't look like a duck either. Or a Gibson.

Also, the binding and rosette do not appear to be very old (i.e., they are white, not yellow). That alone should raise eyebrows...

[JeffD]

A dendrochronologist could possibly take it apart, remove the finish, establish the age of the spruce tree and "prove" that it wasn't made in the '20s, as the hardware suggests.

That was on my list as a kid. It was either fireman, cowboy, or dendrochronologist.

[jim simpson]

The seller is a brick and mortar store in Morganton, NC. Perhaps a Café Member near there could go to the store, check it out, and report their impressions of it. It would have been interesting to see what the reserve is. It would be interesting to determine a value if it is a great player.
It might be a good idea not to mention Mandolin Café if you go to see it. She may not have a good impression of the members.


Soundstown
115 W Union St
Morganton, NC 28655
(828) 430-9386

[DryBones]

I was going to buy that thing and have the body replaced with a matching lefty....too bad it was pulled