Classical style plectrum

[Linda Binder]

<<<As to where to get the Woll picks....I bought mine from Trekel ( trekel.de)
As to where to get a Ranieri style pick... I think making one is about your only option. #There was a very good thread on just how to do that. >>>

Can someone provide a link to that thread for MLT? #I don't know how to that. #Ralf and Alex were instrumental in providing the information in that thread I recall.

[MLT]

Linda,

Yes and No. Actually I am on Brian Dean's list with anticipated delivery of a Cytole style semi-bowl next summer. #

I am very excited, just haven't put it out on any the boards.

But, I thought I would like to get a feel for this style of pick.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Linda and others,

Here you can see how a Roman plectra can be made.
Click here for the link.

The celluloid tortoise shell imitation material we use can be bought from Stewart-MacDonald in the USA.


Many Greetings,

Alex

[Linda Binder]

Thanks Alex! #I find myself confused at the moment about Ranieri and Roman plectra. #How is a Ranieri different?

[MLT]

Thank you Alex, Linda, and Others,

I will really think about the prospect of making one. I have the tools, just not sure I have the patience.

[Alex Timmerman]

Thanks Alex! #I find myself confused at the moment about Ranieri and Roman plectra. #How is a Ranieri different?

Hello Linda,

I had overlooked your question, but here I am with a reply:

Towards the end of the 19th. century there were Roman mandolinists who used the long two pointed plectrum that we are discussing here. Later Luigi Embergher advertised this kind of plectra in his catalogues with the indication 'Sistema Romano "Embergher" selling them through his shop in Rome.

The Plectra known to have been used by the Roman mandolinist Silvio Ranieri differ only in size; a Ranieri plectrum is up to resp. circa 65mm long, with a 18mm. width and a thickness of about 2,5mm. That is, when they are new, of course, while the original Embergher plectra that have 'survived' (Giannino Cerrone donated six Embergher plectra on a selling card with the imprint "Plettri sistema Embergher" to the Embergher - Cerrone museum) #measure 45mm x 15 x 2mm. These six are not of the best quality but nevertheless give an insight to the matter.

That the Embergher plectra were of a slightly smaller size I experienced myself, for back in the early 70-ties I bought an Embergher mandolin with 5 long tortoise shell plectra that were put away in the little box of the case that came with the instrument. These old plectra were excellently polished and beautiful symmetrical shaped. All of them being of a slightly smaller size than a 'Ranieri' plectrum. The excistance of the latter's model I learned some ten years later because of an excellent technical drawing (with all the measurements) of a plectrum described as "Measurements of a pectrum for mandolin, mandola and mandoloncello; after a model by Silvio Ranieri" in the book 'Geschiedenis van de mandoline', p. 240, by Robert Janssens (publ. 1982). Then, that source was my only reference to a 'Ranieri' plectrum.

Therefore I think that if both plectra are compared, the shape and #size of a new made original 'Embergher' plectrum would have been about 60mm long, 13 to 15 mm wide and about 2mm thick at the in the middle (where these plectra are at their thickest). They are very elegant and light to play with.


Attached below is a photo showing 2 of the 5 old tortoise shell plectra mentioned above, together with a larger one made from celluloid, that will give you a good idea of it all.

Now I have learned more, and I think the name Roman Plectrum is a good and perhaps even the best indication, so that people will know that this plectrum kind is the long two pointed plectrum. How long, wide and thick is a personal matter and is less important. #
So that is why I use the name Roman Plectrum for this type. And fortunately there is a fine quality celluloid tortoise shell immitation material that matches excellently the original Tortoise shell of the nowadays protected turtles.


Many greetings,

Alex

Photo Alex Timmerman: 'Plettri sistema Romano' (shown here in real size) .

[Linda Binder]

Thank you for your enlightening answer Alex! # I will follow your lead and refer to this type of plectrum as "Roman" in the future.
Best Regards,
Linda

[Bob A]

I'm curious about the different lengths of the illustrated Roman plectra. How dofferent are the playng characteristics? Which length would be best to begin learning th techniques appropriate to this style of pick?

Thanks.

[Jonathan Peck]

I just contacted Dave Skowron at Red Bear Trading Co. and he said that he has made a few of these over the years. While he doesn't get many requests for these Ranieri style picks, he can make them for anyone who asks.

[Jim Garber]

I am just curious what Dave asks for these and whether there is some range as to thickness.

[Jonathan Peck]

Jim, you can contact Dave directly at flatpicks@gmail.com

I will also be happy to pass along any information as I receive it.

[MLT]

I will also be happy to pass along any information as I receive it.

I would be interested in seeing the information that you get. Thanks for doing the investigative work.

[vkioulaphides]

Thanks to the voracious appetite of tortoise-shell-eating beetles, I am the happy owner of both sizes, small-ish and big-ish. I love both my Romanesque picks!

Once I wear them down with my voracious appetite for mandolin playing, Alex, I will contact you regarding the synthetic substitute that you recommend.

Cheers,

Victor

[Jonathan Peck]

I just heard back from Dave. He has one made up to the dimensions in the attached picture. It is (approx.) 3mm thick and he is selling it for $35-

[Arto]

Alex:
"The celluloid tortoise shell imitation material we use can be bought from Stewart-MacDonald in the USA."

Alex, the link shows pickguard material that is self-adhesive on the other side, and only 0.64 mm thick. Surely thïs is not suitable for making plectrums?

[Jim MacDaniel]

This eBay seller was recently selling some Pettine picks for $7.00 each. They don't have any listed now, but it might be worth emailing them if this is the style you are leaning towards.

[mandroid]

Heck, file a sharp point on a common pick, and see if thats good enough.. audience is listening to the music not seeing if you got a period correct pick in your fist.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Arto,

Yes that is what the link shows but the pickguard material is not that what I use. The Tortoise-celluloid I got from them at the time has a thickness of 2.6mm. From that you can go down to as thin as you like best yourself.


Cheers,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Hey! We classical folks made the mainstream! Looks like Red Bear Trading is now making Roman plectra as part of their regular line. Sort of on the thick side tho -- the Leenen model I have seems much thinner than 2.5-3mm, I think.

[Jim Garber]

The pick I have is quite thin overall, definitely under 1mm. I asked Dave Skowron if it is possible to sand one of his down to that thinness. I know he will not make his picks that thin. In any case, I may just order one to see how they are and how I would play with it.

[MLT]

Having started this thread I am very interested. I normally use a pretty thick pick. But I have also made a few of my own Pettine (style) out of Fender Heavy's based on Marilyn Mair's recent book and found that I like them a lot.

I really appreciate that Red Bear Trading has created this pick style, but I am really unsure if I can bring myself to spend this much on a pick that I have never even tried the style of before. I am looking forward to Jim's evaluation of the full thickness as well as the sanded down version.

[vkioulaphides]

Being quite ignorant, even by the kindest standards, of all the subtle mechanics of the pick, I will hazard a sceptical guess: what I have personally appreciated in Roman picks is at least some degree of flexibility; take that away, and the long pick would, IMHO, become an unwieldy, clunky piece of foreign matter caught up between me and my mandolin. YMMV, of course.

The Neapolitan pick, au contraire, should be rather rigid. In his Method, Calace specified that the pick ought to be piuttosto dura, inflessibile. Again, a personal bias, but short-and-rigid does it for me; if a short pick is also flexible, I get no sense of leverage, of energy directed into the string. I have a lovely TS Neapolitan (courtesy of St. James Garber, guardian of wayward mandolinists worldwide), which exhibits IMHO the superior combination of shape, size, and appropriate rigidity. If I ever use a Neapolitan pick, that's the one.

Ditto, YMMV...

Cheers,

Victor

[Jim Garber]

The pick I have been playing with is stiff but thin, prob the nature and the ideal qualities of TS. Dave informed me that he would make me a thinner one out of his Tortis material and I am willing to gamble on it. It would be exactly the same shape but thinner than the 2.5-3mm he mentions, still probably thicker than the one I play with.

I think the control aspect of this pick compares to how a baseball player chokes up or down on the length to get different effects. In any case, I am pretty comfortable playing with mine esp on my Pandini.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

The 2.5 mm thickness (in the middle) of the Roman plectrum is not that important. At least not when one is starting to play with one. What IS important is the thickness of the material at the point(s). Let's say that of the last centimetre towards the point. To begin learning how to play with the Roman plectrum it is best to start with one that is rather thin (also in the middle; about 1 to 1.5mm.). This gives the plectrum a greater flexibility and a greater control over it when playing with it at that learning fase. A nice coincedence is that then it can also be more flat (and not radius) in the middle of the plectrum. This will give more 'grip' and control over it.
The side effect of such a thin plectrum is that it produces (as all thin [and 'floppy' or thick and soft material] plectras) string attack noises.

Once a better control over the somewhat thin 'beginners' Roman plectrum is gained, a thicker and more rigid one should be taken to improve this playing technick. Once that feels comfortable a thicker one can be taken etc. In the end the string attack noises will have been reduced to almost nothing.

These gradual steps are needed IMO to master the technick of the playing with the long Roman plectrum. At least that is what I teach my students.

One must also be aware that to achieve the best result knowing HOW to hold the Roman plectrum is of great importance. The plectrum should be held between the thumb and forefinger taking in account the positions of the low right hand wrist and the rest of the fingers. This is often quite different than that what is seen of how players hold all other (shorter) plectrum kinds (Neapolitan kinds, Pettine, etc. etc).

Perhaps it is a good idea to also view some close up playing that you can find here, for instance.


Best, don't give up and success,

Alex

[vkioulaphides]

All that makes perfect sense, Alex. Now, for the tricky part: putting good advice into practice. Tonight --as the singers are resting their precious vocal chords prior to opening night, and the orchestra is off-- I will pretend being a mandolinist and try to watch what I'm doing while working on some music.

Scandalously, I am gearing up for --oh, horror of horrors!-- an actual performance later on this spring. But I take consolation in the fact that, at the time of that performance, no experts on such matters as these will be in the audience. *Whew!*

Thanks for the advice. I will work on this. Far wiser, perhaps, to give up on all efforts to improve my playing, and just continue picking away, blissful in my ignorance.

Cheers,

Victor