Classical style plectrum

[Jim Garber]

Scandalously, I am gearing up for --oh, horror of horrors!-- an actual performance later on this spring. But I take consolation in the fact that, at the time of that performance, no experts on such matters as these will be in the audience. *Whew!*

What... are you denying your fans the joy of seeing you perform?? How selfish!

[Jim Garber]

Well... I bit the bullet... er.. plectrum... and ordered a Roman plectrum from Red Bear Trading. Dave says he is making some thinner picks in general and will send me a Roman one that will be thinner than what the specs say on his site.

I will report back when I get it.

[vkioulaphides]

Eagerly awaiting your report, Jim. Please post-- as I'm sure you will. Better yet *snicker* we can get together on one of your visits to the city, and I can try said pick hands-on, order one (or more) for myself if I like it, etc.

[As for the performance, I was not selfish but unclear myself; the date was only carved in stone yesterday evening, after my latest post. It will be on June 11, at the China Institute in Manhattan. The performers will be a newfangled trio comprised of Bob Rose and Yours Truly, alternating as 1st/2nd mandolinist, and Steven Antonelli, our staunch bass-liner on mandocello. The program will consist of two Corelli Trio Sonatas, one of Haydn's "Baryton" Trios, a Mozart String Trio, and perhaps some smaller works. One of us will post further details as they emerge.]

OK, back to pick-talk.

[Jonathan Peck]

Mine has been shipped and I will likely have it in a day or so. Unfortunately, my report would be worthless, so I'm just happy that Dave has agreed to make these available to anyone who would like to find a traditional styled roman pick. Perhaps with experienced players giving direct feedback, Dave will be able to fine tune these to ready stock to player specs.

As far as the cost is concerned, if not lost or mistreated, they should provide years of service without wearing out or breaking.

[vkioulaphides]

Coming from the world of bowed strings --a professional millieu where musicians will gladly pay a few THOUSAND dollars for a quality bow-- I have always found that picks are routinely underestimated, most of all by mandolinists themselves.

No, I do NOT mean that a decent pick ought to cost thousands. Still, a good pick is a VERY crucial part of one's equipment, and ought to be thought of a such. Many picks, of course, of the dime-a-dozen sort, ARE worth, well... a few pennies each. No problem, if you want to stack a handful of them in your backpack, or keep with your extra mando, the one you play at the beach, or lend to your offspring. But as regards my day-in, day-out pick, I wouldn't mind spending a little more, and getting a quality instrument-- yes, I DO call the pick deliberately so, just as the violinist considers the bow to be a "core" part of the instrument he/she plays (as opposed, say, to the regularly replaceable horsehair, strings, rosin, etc.)

Then, of course, I try my best not to lose my pick(s). I wish anyone who offers to make quality mandolin picks, of whatEVER shape and type, all the success they deserve. My pseudo-economist self suggests that, if players were willing to spend a bit more on picks than the dime-a-dozen standard of the local guitar shop, better mandolin picks would be produced by cross-incentive. My $0.02 worth on the far greater worth of a good pick.

[Paul Kotapish]

Well said, Victor.

I agree. A few dollars--or even tens of dollars--is money well spent on a pick (plectrum, strumming device, picking unit) that improves ones touch, tone, volume, technique, and/or pleasure in playing.

[Duc Vu]

Bump.

[Jim Garber]

I guess this post above was a hint for me to post my impressions of the Red Bear Tortis Roman style pick. I have had it for some time but unfortunately have been snowed under with work so barely had time to play.

Here is it side by size with my usual Leenen pick. I have Dave of Red Bear make it thinner than he usually does. I think his usual picks are 2.5-3mm thick with a beveled edge. This one is 1.09 mm which seems about right. I think thinner will make itn prone to breaking. My TS one is thinner tho and gives a little more bite in terms of brightness.

However this Red Bear Tortis one is quite nice and good sounding for a slightly different tone, a hair more mellower. If you wanted to try a Roman style pick this might eb one way to go and I dom like the tone I get from it.

[Duc Vu]

Thanks, Jim.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim and others,


The photo of the Roman celluloid 'Tortis' Plectrum made by Red Bear shows a Roman plectrum that still is quite rectangular right across the width of it. At least that is how it looks to me.

To be sure the advantages of the long Roman Plectrum is understood well, I have made a quick drawing of the plectrum's cross section. Starting at the middle of it towards one of it's two tips at the very end of the plectrum.
The two points must be very smooth and sharp as well as the side(s) of the plectrum. Of course this is especially needed at the sides starting about 1 cm. towards the very point of the plectrum, since that's about the hight where the string will be touched initially by it.

The idea of it is that after stroking a string-pair with a Roman plectrum the strings always slip of very smoothly, causing as little undesired and irritating background noises of the string(attack) as possible.



Best regards,

Alex

[Alex Timmerman]

Here is a picture of one being made that shows how smooth and sharp towards the very point it should be.


Regards,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

The one I play with is quite thin tho does have a slight bevel. I had Dave make it as thin as possible. Originally I think he made the first ones thicker (close to 3mm) with more of the bevel you show.

I am certainly no expert on playing with these since I just play with it in a way that feels comfortable to me. I look fwd to having a real Roman-style player show me how to get the most of it one of these days.

In any case, I also bought one of Dave's pick-care kits and I an sure that I can work on the bevel on this pick.

[Jason Nagati]

I was given the impression that the main advantage of a Roman style plectrum was the speed and control gained during tremolo. If so, a pointed "speed" or sharp pick may also help. I've used a pointed Dunlop stubby. I didn't like it for bluegrass or Celtic, but I could tremble faster for Italian pieces.

Personally, I have a limit to the premium I would pay above an object's material and labor value (I don't own a Wegen). That may change once I start to record, gig, not suck, get rich, etc.

[Bob A]

I have to say that I've picked up a number of Wegen picks from the cafe classifieds, and find that they are excellent on both my bowlbacks and my Gibsons. The cost was minimal; the most reccent batch came in a package deal with 53 picks (!) for forty bucks. At least 5 of the picks were Wegens, and there was an ivory pick as well as scores of others.

I now have enough picks to last thru my current lifetime, and several decades into eternity. Y'all want to come to the post-wake yard sale.

[Jim Garber]

Another bump for this thread. In the equipment section a member reports that Vinnie of V-picks has produced some Roman plectra. I ordered a 1mm version in the usual clear acrylic plastic he uses. Here is the thread.

I have been experimenting with a different material and will report back assuming I can get somthing workable. I will also report back on the v-pick version.

[Jim Garber]

I received the pick from Vinnie today. It actually is quite nice tho about 1mm smaller in size all around than my Euro-made Roman plectra. The sound is also quite nice. I may order a thicker one (1.5mm) and wonder if it could be made with a more-pronounced bevel. In other words, that it thins more gradually from the center to the edges?

[MLT]

Thanks Jim for the quick review.

Based on what you are saying about the bevel can we assume that the current bevel/edge is more like standard (I use the term very loosely) guitar/mandolin picks? What I mean is that the plectrum is basically flat with a quick (or some times gradual) drop to a sharp edge?

[Jim Garber]

Exactly -- with quick drop to edge.

[MLT]

As I thought. Thanks for the confirmation Jim.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

For a better understanding of the Roman plectrum I enclose a photo that (hopefully) gives a good idea of what it is about.

Those Roman plectra with both sides having a compleatly flat surface have the (only) advantage of being easily held between thumb and forefinger. As a disturbing side effect it should be noted that the edge (or better two edges) of this plectrum 'rubs' as it were, against the string(s) causing of course un-wanted noises. This is a dis-advantage of the flat model. However, it is because it's easier to hold, good for people who start to play with the Roman plectrum.

The slightly convex/radius/conical shape of the 'real' Roman plectrum smoothly descends to its sides. It is (compared with flat plectra) more difficult to handle in the beginning but with enough patience and practise one will soon get used to how to handle it properly.
The big advantage of this more conical Roman Plectrum model is that while playing with it un-wanted plectrum noises are brought back to an absolute minimum. Due to the polished razor sharp edge of the plectrum the string(s) - when hit - slides smoothly towards the very tip of the plectrum and bounces, so to speak, from the plectrum. Creating what it is only made for: sound.
When playing with it in the proper manner, one will also notiche the wonderful clean overall sound that you can make with it and gaine from your instrument.
And last but certainly not least; it feels good.


Good luck, enjoy and best greetings,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

So, I guess I am playing with the transitional model, sort of on the thin side and that the ideal would be a thicker one with that tapering toward the edges. Interesting. I have been attempting (slowly) to smooth out the edges of the thinner of the plastic (Ultem) I bought to make a pick and I am thinking that I may need to use the thicker piece for the next attempt to get that tapering.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim,

Yes, that is indeed the case. Try to find celluloid or plastic that, remains rigid towards both tips of the plectrum. Just keep in mind the stiffness of the original material; the tortoise shield of the turtle. The Roman Plectrum never is floppy at it's points.

I have several old Roman tortoise plectra which I only use very sparingly. They are a little shorter, narrower and rigid (see if I can make a scan for you). And I am always pleasantly surprised what a clear and brilliant sound they produce.
It's not so simple to explain in words for me, but it's like these plectra can get from your mandolin the sound that has been given to it by its maker.


good luck,

Alex.

[Jim Garber]

I did roughly cut out a piece of this Ultem plastic in the outline and tried it as-is and it sounds quite good, very similar to TS. It is pretty tough stuff and not so easy to hand sand so I will try to use my Dremel tool to do so.

Ultem makes very nice picks: Clayton and Dunlop use this plastic for some of their picks. It also has a similar sound to TS when dropped on a hard surface.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi again Jim,

I have not tried Ultem plastic sofar but it 'sounds' as it may well be a good alternative for TS. It is nice to have several good materials available.


Cheers,

Alex.

[Eugene]

I use Clayton's "Ultem Gold" to fabricate Neapolitan-type plectra using their large triangles as raw material. Where did you procure a sheet big enough for Roman-type plectra, Jim?