Vintage national mandolins

[sean parker]

the only thing for sure, that i know, is that they're loud. can anyone else fill me in about nationals? thanks.

[danb]

They're a little shrill on the E string, they sound better doing blues in Eb say. The wood-bodied dobro resonator ones might sound a bit more gentle to your ear.

Sometimes the necks are leaning forward.. quite common

Aside from that, they are a lot of fun. Pick gently and you won't blow an eardrum with the E-string

[sean parker]

thanks dan. that's interesting re: neck bow. i understand that many tune them down a step or two because of the slightly longer scale. no doubt it'd help with that neck bow too, besides allowing one to play open in E, which i guess is good for those playing with blues guitarists.

[Jim Garber]

I have a late 1920s style 2 silver. I put heavier strings and tune to E with the lower courses in octaves. yes, good for blues. I think the scale is 15 inches.

My tailpiece also broke a few years ago on the bend and I had Harry Eibert fix it quite nicely.

Jim

[Bob A]

Intonation is a bit problematic, and due to the structure, it's not easily remedied.

[allenhopkins]

Had the same tailpiece problem with mine. I have a '30's vintage Triolian steel-body, faux wood-grain brown paint, 15-inch scale. Very loud and unsubtle, but not an unpleasant sound. I've used it for blues, klezmer (it's a "clarinet killer"), and other specific applications.

National was notorious for using wood for necks that wasn't thoroughly seasoned, and warping is common. My National Style O guitar from the same era needed a fretboard planing and refret to correct a fairly serious bow. The mandolin, however, has a nice straight neck -- no truss rod, but the neck is "beefy" enough to handle the medium-light strings tuned to standard "G" pitch.

One problem I did find, besides replacing the tailpiece with a replica, was the scarcity of hardshell cases to fit the large body and long neck. I ended up building a pretty crude "coffin" case for the National.

My overall evaluation is that it's a "niche" instrument, like the banjo-mandolin, useful in specific applications, and fun to pull out at a jam or sing-around just to see how well it fits into a particular genre. The German silver and nickel-plated brass Nationals are really striking instruments. Mine's a cut below, but it has a real "bluesy" vibe to it.

[Spruce]

I've played a lot of vintage Nationals, and nothing comes close--both in terms of tone and playability--to the new Nationals...

Just my .002...

[Bob DeVellis]

Although I love the art deco look of the shiny metal bodies, the wood bodies seem to have a more workable tone. I have a Dobro/Regal wood body and the tone's sweetness is surprising to many. Its neck has been reset, which is a remedy for a common problem. Intonation, as noted, is often very iffy. I think the cones (or spiders on the Dobro/Regal's, at least) sometimes compress, which can reek havoc with intonation. If I were in the market for a resophonic at this point, I'd definitely consider the new Nationals, unless I found a decent vintage at a great price. Another oddity worth noting is that there is often very little clearance between the strings and the top deck of the instrument, with a relatively small area just behind the fingerboard end being really the only place where you can pick. Often when this isn't the case, the action is horrendous. Conversely, when the action is good, this issue arises. I'm speaking primarily of vintage instruments here. Although I agree that they're niche instruments to a degree, I don't think that niche is as narrow as the mandolin banjo niche. I've had several of the latter and got rid of them all, while hanging onto the Regal/Dobro. If people didn't see the Regal/Dobro, I'm not sure they'd notice anything that unusual about its tone in a group context. In contrast, I think a mandolin banjo would easily be singled out among a group of instruments in a blind test, and not typically in a good way.

[MML]

bobd brings up a good point about clearance between the strings and the cover plate, talk about pick click wowza.
There is a true sweet spot on mine and its just off the end of the fingerboard. I don't play mine much but sometimes I just get that "good man feeling bad" mood.

[markishandsome]

I think the cones (or spiders on the Dobro/Regal's, at least) sometimes compress, which can reek havoc with intonation.

Is there an easy way for non-experts to judge whether unreasonable action is due to a bowed neck or a smushed cone? If I were looking at one online or in a store would I be able to spot cone damage without taking the off cover plate?

[mrmando]

My first clue to cone damage is when the ice cream starts leaking out.

[sean parker]

uuugghhh...intonation problems, string height restrictions....sounds like more trouble than it's worth for me.

it appears they share many issues with their vintage guitar brethren, so to kind of echo spruce - i've played quite a few vintage n'tl guitars, and the new ones are better instruments (IMHO) so perhaps the same goes for the mandos.

bobd - there's a beautiful bacon & day mandolin banjo at www.vintageinstruments.com #you could be singled-out, but be looking good!

allen - good for klezmer?! alright! once a week, i struggle manfully on gtr and mandolin with a great but ear-shaking clarinet playing klezmer #

well, it's a shame. cos i was fancying a vintage number (and not a teen or 20's gibson) as i am selling a couple of guitars and will have some spare change. thinking possibly about a vega cylinder back. do you guys like those?

thanks all.

[PseudoCelt]

Sean, if you're looking for a resonator mandolin in Australia, you might want to check out a Donmo. I've played a couple and they are nice instruments.

Patrick

[danb]

Yes, cylinderbacks have a dedicated following too. They can be quite wonderful. If you really like mellow mandolin tone, I think the maple-backed ones are in a category with the fine Gibson F4s for tonality. Sweetness, that round hole tone, plus a bit more resonance and sustain. They can be wonderful, but also have their own raft of issues to work around to make sure you get a good one !

[Paul Hostetter]

I have made National mandolins, and I own several old ones: a '29 silver one, a Chicago-era Triolian (steel) and a '39 Supro (steel, with a gorgeous puke-yellow paint job that looks like naugahyde diner seats, clear tuner buttons and matching clear pickguard). The ones I made were wood-bodied, but essentially identical to the metal ones:



As with the guitars, the brashest, harshest-sounding ones are steel bodied. Nickel-silver (solid, not plated brass) bodied ones are bright but less brash. Plated brass ones are noticeably softer, and the most mellifluous ones are the wood-bodied ones. There were no production wooden mandolins in the old days, it's the one model of National that never had a wooden version. That's why I made some. Two of the three I finished went to MacGregor Gaines and Don Young, I kept the one above. They are nothing like their current production mandolins. The old ones had a 15" scale, the current ones use the Gibson 13-7/8" scale.

Never judge the sound of any resophonic mandolin (or guitar) only by how it sounds to you while you are playing it. Sit ten feet in front of it and have someone else play it at/for you. Night and day.

I have recorded and performed a fair amount with the wood-bodied National, it's extremely sweet and gentle, even if it's also loud as can be. You can play the wooden ones sweet: the overtones mesh in a really nice way.

Intonation on the originals is indeed tough, but the ones I made were specifically laid out so I could rotate the cone to a slight angle and gain full compensation on all the strings. If you rotate the cones on most (not all) of the old ones, the E goes way sharp if the G is in tune. You can't move the saddle off-center of the biscuit unless you want to risk conal collapse, which is not a pretty sight. Once in awhile you can ooch the whole cone back in the well and get the intonation to be tolerable.

[Bob A]

I have a pair of National guitars. The Duolian has that great crackle-green finish, and has a new fretboard, so it actually intonates properly, and it's real ebony too. The best of both worlds, thanks to Harry Eibert.

The other is a tricone from the 30s. Sweet instrument.

To me, the great unknown question is: Can metal-bodied instruments have Mojo? My contention is they can, but I'm not sure the market agrees. Interestingly, most of the original Nationals from the 30s are no longer in the marketplace; the only ones I've seen are the Style O, and square-necked tricones. Is everyone else sitting on their Nationals too? Or is this just part of the Disappearing Vintage market?

[markishandsome]

Bob Brozman claims they "open up" just like wooden instruments do, and they can also get "used up" like classical guitars can. I've never played a vintage one myself, but I'm pretty comfortable perpetuating urban legends on the internet

[allenhopkins]

Most of the original Nationals from the 30s are no longer in the marketplace; the only ones I've seen are the Style O, and square-necked tricones. Is everyone else sitting on their Nationals too? Or is this just part of the Disappearing Vintage market?

Stutzman's Guitar Center here in Rochester has a National "Havana" model wood-bodied round-neck guitar from the late '30's. Spruce top, arch-pressed back. Brozman says in his book The History and Artistry of National Resonator Instruments, "[T]he bodies were made by Kay. Very few have been seen." [p.98]

Guitar has a nice sound, and I'm hemming and hawing about a possible purchase; it's around $1.5K, not unreasonable.

[Paul Hostetter]

Can metal-bodied instruments have Mojo?

I sure think they do, but it seems the decisive factor is the player, not the instrument.

The Havana was a single-cone budget item launched in 1941, which should explain their rarity. Spruce top?? They were nothing like the stentorian Aragon, a big Kay archtop with a single cone. From Frank Ford:

[sean parker]

goodness! the aragon has an amazing shape. if it had a flattop and soundhole, it could be a larson.

it reminds me of this kay wood amplifying guitar which is also very snazzy (from players vintage instruments)

[Paul Hostetter]

If it had a flat top and a round hole it would look like a Kay:



Kay had its way with resonators, but I bet that one at Banana's doesn't really have an aluminum cone.

[Spruce]

Thanks for the education, Paul....

Didn't you build the first few prototypes for National when they were gearing up to build them again??

Anyway, Steve James was on the island a few months ago, and I got to play his newer National...

It just killed me....
"Mellifluous" is indeed an apt word, and I've been looking for one ever since....

[Paul Hostetter]

Bruce - scroll up, young man!

The new ones are really cool, sonically and visually. But they're not the same as the old ones, which is what I was driving for (and pretty much got) in the prototypes I built. From a production standpoint the new ones are way easier to manufacture, and that Gibson scale has its points as well. Vive la difference.

[Spruce]

"Bruce - scroll up, young man! "

Well, I'm making Fender Esquires too, but (obviously) not for Fender... #

I was just curious if National commissioned you to do these, and it sounds like the answer is "yes"...

So yours were all the longer scale length? #
Do you have an opinion as to what scale length works best on those instruments?
Nice job on those, BTW....

[Paul Hostetter]

Brozperson and I used to demo their guitars at NAMM, which initiated the relationship with Don and Mac when they were first getting going. After a couple of years of that, not to mention Brozman's escalating involvement in their activities, I (being a mandolin nut) pitched the idea to them of making a wooden mandolin. At that point they were only making wooden instruments, the Islanders and the Resolectrics and so on, because the die-making necessary for metal bodies seemed too daunting. And they were too busy to undertake another model like that. They loved the idea, so I sort of nominated myself to do a bunch of it.

Those first ones I made sported coverplates Don made (smaller hole than the guitar cover) with straps I made. I made the tailpieces (crude but effective), the bodies and the necks, including the fingerboards and so on. Mac made the overlays with the engraved logo (I think one of them might have had a decal instead). I finished the stuff I had, carted it all down to SLO and they painted them (the first three were the three basic paintjobs they offered then: sunburst, Reso-Revlon Red, and Islander beige), soldered my strap to the coverplate and had them plated. Then I got those parts back, including the special cones Don made, and I made biscuits and then assembled the things and set them up. Harptone (I miss them so) made great cases for them, and we had a plan. They were as busy as they could be filling orders for guitars, so I was going to to be a side contractor.

Then they suddenly discovered a way to get the metal bodies fabricated that sidestepped the expense of the traditional old dies National used way back when, and they simply dropped the mandolin project. So I have some tooling and jigs, and lots of parts, but little incentive to press further. I'm onto other things, so are they, and it's all good. I'm glad they got back to mandolins, and I like what they've done now.

Which is the long way of saying it wasn't exactly a commission so much as an agreement and a brief but enjoyable collaboration.

They actually had hand-fabricated a few steel bodied guitars - the hard way, with tin snips and soldering guns - and then sent them to a hot-dip galvanizing outfit, so they looked like buckets from the hardware store. Those had mojo without even being played. They were sketchy and much too labor-intensive to be practical in a production situation, but they were real art. The galvanizing has a nice pattern not unlike the Duco crystal finishes. The thin steel bodies had major clang too.

15" just means longer and tighter and brighter. 15" is also about the limit that any string can be reliably tuned to E, and J-74s are too heavy. I like the length personally, you can have really low buzz-free action, and the intonation is a dream as long as the saddle is in the right place, an Achilles heel of the earlier Nationals. I'd earlier made some Iucci-inspired mandolins that also used 15" so I could add a fifth C course, and that worked well too. I think the new Nationals with the more "normal" scale make them accessible to a lot of players because it's what they are familiar with.