Has anyone used Siminoff's de-damping "break-in" service? I have a new Weber Bitterroot that I'm considering sending out there to get "opened up." It seems like they can give you equivalent of several years of optimal use and really make the instrument hum.
Experiences and general thoughts on the subject much appreciated.
-Jonathan
This should be an interesting thread (firing up the popcorn here).
My $.02... I wouldn't do this myself. While mechanical vibration might be proven to show subtle changes in the wood structure, there is no double-blind test I'm aware of that proves this change results in a *musical* improvement instead of just a change of some kind. How do you know that change is better, or good for the instrument, compared to just playing the durn thing? It could be worse than the normal break-in method.
All the positive customer reviews on the Siminoff web site are from people posting anecdotal impressions. Nobody is posting results from carefully controlled recordings done with mechanical picking (to eliminate player bias) before and after, with blind ABX testing. Show me some tests like that, and let me do my own ABX comparisons, and I'll start to pay attention to this method... or any similar method like parking your instrument in front of a home stereo running full blast.
If break-in happens at all (and I'm naturally skeptical of the degree of break-in often claimed, not necessarily the fact that something does change over time), I want an instrument broken-in by my hand and by the types of music I play.
Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin
The one person I know of, is a well respected member of the Cafe, Arthur Stern. He's had a string to the best mando's, is a collector, and decided one of them needed the treatment. If I remember right, he said it was night and day and recommended it highly. I believe if anybody was going to know how to do it, it would be Roger Siminoff. YMMV.
An excellent point. Thank you.
There's the old cognitive dissonance thing coming into play, no doubt, with the satisfied customers' testimonials. That is, if you paid for it, it must be good. Zero science involved there.
One guy on here in another thread said he put his instrument in front of a large, well-amplified speaker and played bluegrass music at it for X-amount of time.
I'm probably extra susceptible to the sales pitch because I recently read Allen St. John's _Clapton's Guitar_, where he talks a bit about polymerization of wood over time and other aspects of developing resonance. Probably just playing the little bugger a lot will yield the desored effect...whatever that is.
-Jonathan
I've heard guitars that have been through the process and thought it was BS. The owners, having spent the loot however, were passionately convinced they'd witnessed a miracle. It's somewhere between the Princess and the Pea and the Emperor's New Clothes. Sorry.
Does this Weber have a Brekke bridge by any chance?
I'm with you on this one.Originally Posted by (Paul Hostetter @ Oct. 02 2007, 22:46)
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
There was an article in Acoustic Guitar magazine a few years back. It was discussed here many times. They took some new guitars of different brands, measured frequency response on the tops and also had professional players play them and rate them. Then they sent the guitars to an acoustics lab for de-damping. They they re-measured the frequency responses and also had the players play them and rate them again. All the guitars improved significantly both in the objective frequency response test and in the subjective ratings.
Just play the sh*t out of it yourself... that'll get it broken in!
Agree glasweb! And your statement sums up the question here. If playing the "Shoot" out of them breaks them in, then Rogers Gizmo will do the same thing... (why wouldn't it?)
Shalom,Yonkle (JD)
I get the idea of de-dampening but why waste the cash ....instead play the hound out of it.... you are out of no money
plus you get the benefit of building your chops up....no mechanical strummer can do that for you !!!!
David B
Style is based on limitations.....Music is based on repetition. Mark Twang
This is tacit acceptance of the notion that playing (vibration, etc.) is what breaks an instrument in, or somehow that's basically all that causes it to change - for the better, I reckon - over time. Pretty shallow view in my estimation.
As far as articles in magazines, I have known and played instruments before and after that treatment. I'm operating from direct experience, not what I read in some magazine. The answer is still: Feh. (What's the question?)
Would be interesting to see whether the effect, if substantial, persists through a subsequent period of non-use, or whether it simply warms up the instrument for a while. Presuming it warms up the instrument.
Stephen Perry
Paul,do you have some doubts about the effectiveness of the Brekke bridge fitted to some Weber Mandolins ?. I have a Brekke bridge on my Weber Beartooth & i think it sounds fine BUT - is there any evidence to show that maybe the Brekke bridges perform less well than the conventional type bridge,or is it just 'horses for courses'?.I'd be interested in your views,
Saska
Weber F-5 'Fern'.
Lebeda F-5 "Special".
Stelling Bellflower BANJO
Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
Ellis DeLuxe "A" style.
"Logic is a function of desire"
JG
To wit: Several posts claim they want scientific evidence and the supposed holy grail of science, the "double blind" study. Then someone posts a study--albeit w/out a link for a verification--and no one posts that they are convinced and the replies return to anecdotal "I couldn't tell a difference." Well if the people who said they thought the de-damping was great for them isn't enough evidence why would the same type of logic on the other side be any different?
With that being said, my take on the de-damping process is that it is a poor (price not-withstanding), red-headed, 3rd cousin, twice removed version of playing the instrument yourself. Why? Pretty simple really. Vibrations DO affect the wood---and though not part of the vaunted(?) "double-blind" method there IS such a large number of anecdotal stories that it lends itself AT THE VERY LEAST, a bit of credibility, i.e. the opening up process. Vibrations created by you, through time, will be more closely attuned to you and the way you play. And the sound of you playing the instrument itself is also in the correct order: You pluck the strings THEN the sound board resonates. Playing loud music--of whatever kind--is a poor second AND it's bass-ackwards: Recorded music (which to my ear, no matter how great the system is NEVER sounds as good as live...the player may be better but the sound doesn't even come close) hits the soundboard which causes a sympathetic vibration which will still have a desirable effect upon the instrument but it's still not the proper sequence.
And that's what I think about it until I think something else!
Gypsy Renegade
Logic is a function of desire
If mandolins really do get better as the result of playing, and not age alone, then it would seem that any type of playing would help to improve the mandolin. If the mandolin is mechanically played for the equivalent of one year's normal play then the mandolin would be one year better than new at the end of the process. Since I play more than 72 hours per year that part of the de-damping process would only speed the mandolin's improvement by a matter of a few months. If the mando in question was my only one it would be maybe a month's worth of improvement.
The other part of the de-damping process (essentially blasting the mando with sound) makes less sense to me. I've done that bit with setting a guitar in front of a stereo speaker but whether that helped it or not I can't say. It sure did annoy the neighbors though.
I think I'd rather spend the money on voodoo or a tone gard.
Well they do vary considerably in responsiveness absent of string changes etc. I've always wondered. I've noticed my own instruments will vary with humidity. Old ones certainly "Wake up" after a bit of playing. I've entertained the idea that it's fine tuning to technique to get better response, but I don't believe that to be the case.
I've always been suspicious of people who say things don't open up. The measuring systems that are built-in (the ears) detect that, and absent of personal feelings of attachment. I've found it happening on borrowed instruments, things I dislike the look of etc just as much as ones I have an emotional tie to.
So I'd lean towards thinking "that should work", though the specifics and the science of why would be interesting to see.
I know Roger Siminoff well enough to know that if he claims it, I believe it. I do think it can offer some substantial help to some instruments. Still, I think a professional set up and trying a conventional Loar style bridge properly fit will make as much difference as anything you can put your money on. It is amazing what a professional set up can make to a brand new mandolin!
I would have no problem sending one to Roger because I trust him. I would want to do what I could first, and then if I felt it needed it, send it on. Just my opinions.
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
You could just give it to one of those kids in a Dodge Neon with 10,000 watts going to an array of subwoofers that sounds like an earthquake and have him drive it around town for a while.
From that statement can I assume that my brand new Gibson I bought a few years ago never had a professional setup but would have benefited from one?
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
[From that statement can I assume that my brand new Gibson I bought a few years ago never had a professional setup but would have benefited from one?]
Depends on WHO you bought it from.
New Gibsons are all set up from the factory with an AVERAGE set up designed to withstand the rigors of inital break-in and adjustment wherever they end up.
The local Gibson dealer is SUPPOSED to do a second set up before sale based on the customer's needs and their local environment.
Few do.
I had my 2002 Gibson Fern set up by a local mando specialist after I got it.
He was OK. After a couple of years I sent it to Gibson Nashville where Jackie Miller did a set-up.
Night and day difference.
Jackie is a master who knows how to do a set-up properly. The other guy's setup was not even in the same league.
Long answer to a short question.
Does this Weber have a Brekke bridge by any chance?
[QUOTE]
Yes it does. I'm happy with the instrument in every respect, just wondering if I'm missing out on something good. I'm starting to think I'm going to have to spend the $200 just to satisfy my curiosity. (And, of course, develop a completely subjective opinion as a result.)
-Jonathan
I played bluegrass via speakers to my mandolin and I really do believe it helped. I also played it 7 or more hours a week. The speakers were not turned up any louder than normal listening volume. My neighbors never suspected anything..lol. Worst case..there was bluegrass playing when I came home from work , and I was pretty sure that this treatment would not cause harm to the instrument?
Dave
I knew a Mandolin player that had a F-5 which was an excellent Loar fake. So much so he was forced to have "The Gibson" logo removed via the original builder. This mandolin player stored the instrument under his bed for a long period and in the coastal environment and home heater, it became wet inside and was rescued before the top warped.
He then let it air dry and stated it changed in tone dramatically and for the better. Who knows what effect this weird treatment had? I can vouch for its tone although it has been over twenty years since I heard its heavely Mission Street tone! Have not heard better since then as my memory in this regard is clear and present.
Harry:blues:
How much does it cost $$ for A Siminoff treatment? Does anyone know.
I Pick, Therefore I Grin! ... "Good Music Any OLD-TIME"
1922 Gibson F2
2006 Gibson F5 Goldrush
2015 Martin HD28-V
2017 Gibson J45
I've been open-minded about the "Break-in" of instruments from quite a bit of personal experience of it.
It could be something else, but I am not sure what explains it better at the moment. You always talk about the bass "Developing" or "playing in". The various vintage pieces I've owned (especially ones that were played quite a bit) would have fairly dramatic wake-ups after a half hour of playing or so.
It seems to me that to get this effect, you also have to have a really good set-up as Joe says. Once everything is ticking over, there seems to be a ridge you cross when the tone really leaps up.
This was most dramatically noticable to me with the schultz Loar when I borrowed that some years back. I had to position the bridge, adjust the action etc. I found that fine-tuning the bridge position and setup was an incredible difference. And again when Jamie Wiens replaced worn out parts and did a better set-up. But there is always a little lag at least, between the set-up and the big pay-off. Certainly *something* is changing, it's quite an audible difference.
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