I thought so...
I thought so...
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
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Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.
I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.
It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode.
Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view.
I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)
Just one guy's opinion.
Just one guy's opinion
www.guitarfish.net
You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".
This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).
Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.
Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.
Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.
The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.
But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?
Personally, I like standard notation since that's what I am familiar with. Tab is kinda like the Bert Casey video for beginers. "Now press your second finger on the third fret of the second string". WHAT? did he say? By the time I translate all of that he's many measures away from me.
Now on the other hand, tab is usefull if the tune I am trying to play goes way up the neck on the E strings. Once the E changes past a high B then I have to rethink what the notes are. In that case while tab won't tell me the note it will tell me the fret to use. That makes tab a handy thing to have around as a learning tool.
At least for me anyway.:D
Kevin Vail
"My head hurts, therefore I am".Originally Posted by (Paul Kotapish @ Oct. 16 2007, 20:37)
What we see is of course the age-old phenomenon of confusing information with opinion and attacking on arbitrary assumptions because they suit one's prejudiced reactions ("elitism" because you happen to know something) etc.
What can I possibly say? "Let no such man be trusted".
MIsterT asks an important question. I've asked it myself several times. It has never been answered. It's more important to some people to go on attacking others in defense of a long forgottten cause.
When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.
Now, that is excellent advice. Sort of like the madman on the street corner, shouting to the world. I like it.Originally Posted by (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 17 2007, 03:27)
Personally, as a "tab enthusiast", I have no interest in deriding the traditional notationists. You see, I am a traditional notation lover too. I like my theory very much thankyou, and I love to use my ears - indeed my favourite tool has always been my ears! I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.Originally Posted by
P.S ...and as for defensive; why of course yes. Be aware though, that I am also defending the right of a musician to use standard notation, and tablature, or any method he/she might choose in order to reach his/her goals as a musician.
Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times.Originally Posted by
John carefully explained why and how standard notation contains more information than tablature. Instead of responding to that idea, the tabbies just stated they disagreed, and started calling the dotties "elitists." There's one on every forum.
Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
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Granted - I'm repeating myself now ....must be getting old!Originally Posted by
Wonderful analogy, Niles! Puts a lot of stuff in life in perspective. I may engrave those words on my forehead.Originally Posted by (mandocrucian @ Oct. 16 2007, 21:28)
Jim
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Agreed, Lonestars and Lawdstahs fah all. Wicked pissah idear jmcgann.
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Very well said.Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Oct. 17 2007, 07:59)
As a kid I took banjo lessons. On my third lesson my teacher complained that he had too many students, and suggested that I might want to teach one or two of the absolute beginners.
Me: "I'm just a beginner myself, I've only had three lessons!"
Teacher: "Don't worry about it, you only have to be one or two lessons ahead of the student."
I quit after that and never went back to the banjo.
Jeff
I agree that learning breaks off of albums is a good way to learn, and goodness knows I have done this too, but I really think there is too much of it. It seems to be what everyone wants to do.Originally Posted by (ducati08 @ Oct. 15 2007, 07:59)
I remember hearing Isaac Stern talking to a young prodigy violinist about this, and he told her not to emulate great violinists, but to listen to a lot of vocal music, and try and imitate the human voice.
Somewhere between studying at the feet of the greats, and devotedly emulating their licks, somewhere between those two extremes. And I think the best way to develop your own style is to listen to all kinds of music, from all kinds of instruments, and play what you enjoy hearing.
I saw it somewhere on this forum and I love it: Be yourself, everyone else is taken!
Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months.
Niles, that was cool!
Yea, that by itself was probably worth wading through 8 of the pages.Originally Posted by (mandohack @ Oct. 18 2007, 07:58)
'This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use'
Really? Says Who? Is this your 'well informed' opinion as a professional philosopher (complete with elitists attitudes regarding valid hypotheitcal arguments?) In your own words, 'Well formed according to you, me or someone else?'
'I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.'
Yeah. But substitute 'music notation' with 'tablature' and that 'GUESS' is even better...
'Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better'
Me too. Especially those who use the structure and jargon of informal logic in order to try and bolster the soundness of otherwise weak arguments.
'To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own'
Of course. This is a trivial point which, if you read the posts carefully, no one is denying. The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'? Attack the theory itself i.e. the various, LOGICAL reasons given by those for holding this BELIEF
<Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines>.
John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
johnmcgann.com
myspace page
Youtube live mando
Since this thread began, I have learned to read notation.
Ok everyone... think of all the practice time y'all have spent on this discourse
Cheers,
Rob
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Sinebar's orginal post asked a simple question:Originally Posted by (DMC @ Oct. 21 2007, 20:40)
QUOTE]I know standard notation pretty good. So should I stick with standard notation and learn to apply it to the mandolin or would it be better to use tab?[[/QUOTE]
There was nothing in the post about which format contains more information. That particular slant on the question has evolved over the last 12 pages.
Lots of folks with a lot of experience have offered a opinions about which was the more useful format, and those opinions were based on a lot more than which format contained more information.
I don't think anyone has done a serious pedagogical comparison to see which format is the better tool for conveying musical ideas in print. Until we put a million mandolin-playing monkeys in a room with tab and another million monkeys in another room with notation and see which room learns the Bach partitas faster, we probably can't determine that particular point beyond anecdotal experience.
However, the professional teachers in our little community seem to concur that the notation is--at this moment, anyway--the more fluid, expressive, and versatile tool for jotting down musical ideas and conveying them on paper to other musicians.
But setting aside the particular efficacy of tab versus notation as applied to the mandolin, there are other important reasons for choosing to learn notation and how it applies to the mandolin instead of learning only tab.
Not least of these is the fact that there is an enormous repository of potential mandolin music that is available only in notation. For anyone interested in classical music, jazz, or traditional music from almost anywhere, the ability to read notation will open up far more repertoire than the relatively thin smattering currently available in tab.
Just one guy's opinion.
Just one guy's opinion
www.guitarfish.net
Yes. Well put.
I was referring to an argument that arose during the development of this thread. I should have made that clear.
I believe notation has the potential to convey more information than tab but that tab definitely has its uses. My point is merely that my belief isn't based on a simple appeal to authority. And no one (as far as I can tell though I'm not gonna read the whole thread again!!) has suggsted we should accept this view simply because they are a professional player or teacher.
Should have also wrote, like you, that this is just my opinion.
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