Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 89101112
Results 276 to 296 of 296

Thread: Standard notation vs tab

  1. #276
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    2,036

    Default

    I thought so...
    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
    johnmcgann.com
    myspace page
    Youtube live mando

  2. #277
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Alameda, California
    Posts
    2,484

    Default

    Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.

    I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.

    It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode.

    Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view.

    I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)

    Just one guy's opinion.



    Just one guy's opinion
    www.guitarfish.net

  3. #278
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,210

    Default

    You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".

    This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).

    Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.

    Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.

    Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.

    The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.

    But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?


  4. #279
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    champaign
    Posts
    278

    Default

    Personally, I like standard notation since that's what I am familiar with. Tab is kinda like the Bert Casey video for beginers. "Now press your second finger on the third fret of the second string". WHAT? did he say? By the time I translate all of that he's many measures away from me.
    Now on the other hand, tab is usefull if the tune I am trying to play goes way up the neck on the E strings. Once the E changes past a high B then I have to rethink what the notes are. In that case while tab won't tell me the note it will tell me the fret to use. That makes tab a handy thing to have around as a learning tool.
    At least for me anyway.:D
    Kevin Vail

  5. #280
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Linköping, Sweden
    Posts
    1,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (Paul Kotapish @ Oct. 16 2007, 20:37)
    Oy. This thread makes my head hurt.

    I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.

    It's all just personal opinion, folks, and if some folks want to back up their opinions with an indication of the pedigree and experience that went into forming that opinion, it's no reason to take offense and jump into "what-do-the-experts-know-and-who-says-you're-an-expert-anyway" mode.

    Having a different opinion doesn't necessitate tearing down the other side's point of view.

    I learn most everything by ear, but when I do need to lean on the written page, notation is--IMHO--a lot more straightforward and versatile than tab. And--as already mentioned--reading notation sure opens up one's horizons to printed music for other instruments where tab isn't an option (violin, flute, piano, etc.)

    Just one guy's opinion.
    "My head hurts, therefore I am".

    What we see is of course the age-old phenomenon of confusing information with opinion and attacking on arbitrary assumptions because they suit one's prejudiced reactions ("elitism" because you happen to know something) etc.
    What can I possibly say? "Let no such man be trusted".

    MIsterT asks an important question. I've asked it myself several times. It has never been answered. It's more important to some people to go on attacking others in defense of a long forgottten cause.

    When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.

  6. #281
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,258

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (Peter Hackman @ Oct. 17 2007, 03:27)
    When I'm being attacked or ridiculed by less informed people I often delete the post that elicited these attacks - leaving #the other guy ranting at no one over nothing.
    Now, that is excellent advice. Sort of like the madman on the street corner, shouting to the world. I like it.

  7. #282
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Not Even Close
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I haven't read anything that was denigrating or derrogatory from any of the defenders of traditional notation, but some of the responses from tab enthusiasts seem to border on the derisive--and the defensive.
    Personally, as a "tab enthusiast", I have no interest in deriding the traditional notationists. You see, I am a traditional notation lover too. I like my theory very much thankyou, and I love to use my ears - indeed my favourite tool has always been my ears! I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.

    P.S ...and as for defensive; why of course yes. Be aware though, that I am also defending the right of a musician to use standard notation, and tablature, or any method he/she might choose in order to reach his/her goals as a musician.




  8. #283
    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Oregon
    Posts
    1,018
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by
    I would just like it to be acknowledged that all these tools can be useful, at some level, to aspiring musicians. The use of tablature would have died out years ago if no-one had a need for it.
    Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times.

    John carefully explained why and how standard notation contains more information than tablature. Instead of responding to that idea, the tabbies just stated they disagreed, and started calling the dotties "elitists." There's one on every forum.
    Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
    Progressive Melodies for Mandocello (KDP, 2019) (2nd ed. 2022)
    New Solos for Classical Mandolin (Hal Leonard Press, 2020)
    2021 guest artist, mandocello: Classical Mandolin Society of America

  9. #284
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Not Even Close
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by
    Yes, that's been acknowledged here repeatedly. No one said tablature isn't useful. I've said the opposite several times.
    Granted - I'm repeating myself now ....must be getting old!

  10. #285
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    30,753

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (mandocrucian @ Oct. 16 2007, 21:28)
    You know, there are (real) "teachers" and then there are guys who "show you some stuff they do".

    This whole thing reminds me of playing pool. There's plenty of recreational players that will always opt to sink the easiest ball, without ever thinking whether they'll be in decent position for the next shot(s).

    Then there are those who think one shot ahead. Go for the 2nd easiest shot that leaves them with another ball they have a decent chance of sinking.

    Then there are the experienced players who are thinking how they are going to run the entire table.

    Same analogy - thinking moves ahead - could also be used for chess.

    The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.

    But hey, you've got it all figured out on your own, right?

    Wonderful analogy, Niles! Puts a lot of stuff in life in perspective. I may engrave those words on my forehead.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  11. #286

    Default

    Agreed, Lonestars and Lawdstahs fah all. Wicked pissah idear jmcgann.
    -1

  12. #287
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Oct. 17 2007, 07:59)
    The real teachers are thinking 10 lessons ahead of the student. It's not just what you are going to do today, but getting you ready to handle what is planned for three months from now, or where you need to be headed. The guys who "show you some stuff they do" are only thinking in terms of today, and possibly next week.
    Very well said.

    As a kid I took banjo lessons. On my third lesson my teacher complained that he had too many students, and suggested that I might want to teach one or two of the absolute beginners.

    Me: "I'm just a beginner myself, I've only had three lessons!"

    Teacher: "Don't worry about it, you only have to be one or two lessons ahead of the student."

    I quit after that and never went back to the banjo.

    Jeff
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  13. #288
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (ducati08 @ Oct. 15 2007, 07:59)
    Almost every instructor at the Mandolin Symposium this year at some point talked about learning the breaks off of some record. How hard it used to be with vinyl etc. Studying at the feet of the greats (as it were) is one of the BEST ways to discover and develop your own style. It doesn't happen in a vacumn.
    I agree that learning breaks off of albums is a good way to learn, and goodness knows I have done this too, but I really think there is too much of it. It seems to be what everyone wants to do.

    I remember hearing Isaac Stern talking to a young prodigy violinist about this, and he told her not to emulate great violinists, but to listen to a lot of vocal music, and try and imitate the human voice.

    Somewhere between studying at the feet of the greats, and devotedly emulating their licks, somewhere between those two extremes. And I think the best way to develop your own style is to listen to all kinds of music, from all kinds of instruments, and play what you enjoy hearing.


    I saw it somewhere on this forum and I love it: Be yourself, everyone else is taken!
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  14. #289
    Chief Moderator/Shepherd Ted Eschliman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    4,382
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months.

    Niles, that was cool!
    Ted Eschliman

    Author, Getting Into Jazz Mandolin

  15. #290
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    24,807
    Blog Entries
    56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (mandohack @ Oct. 18 2007, 07:58)
    Twelve pages now about TAB vs standard notation, and I don't think I've learned anything new about the "argument," or whose Dad can beat up whose, but Niles' earlier post about playing pool was one of the most profound I've read in months.

    Niles, that was cool!
    Yea, that by itself was probably worth wading through 8 of the pages.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

  16. #291

    Default

    'This hypothetical has too many holes in it to be of any use'

    Really? Says Who? Is this your 'well informed' opinion as a professional philosopher (complete with elitists attitudes regarding valid hypotheitcal arguments?) In your own words, 'Well formed according to you, me or someone else?'

    'I GUESS what is happening is people have a lot vested in their learning of music notation and thus feel the need to not only defend it but often times to covertly denigrate those who don't align themselves with those same ideas.'

    Yeah. But substitute 'music notation' with 'tablature' and that 'GUESS' is even better...

    'Sure, I'm guilty of getting riled up when I run into elitist attitudes and even more so from people that should know better'

    Me too. Especially those who use the structure and jargon of informal logic in order to try and bolster the soundness of otherwise weak arguments.

    'To me "elitist attitude(s)" are just what I described: You should accept my analysis because I have studied this in depth or whatever. To which I reply a resounding no. The theories must have merit on their own'

    Of course. This is a trivial point which, if you read the posts carefully, no one is denying. The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'? Attack the theory itself i.e. the various, LOGICAL reasons given by those for holding this BELIEF

  17. #292
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Boston MA
    Posts
    2,036

    Default

    <Comment removed. Violates board posting guidelines>.



    John McGann, Associate Professor, Berklee College of Music
    johnmcgann.com
    myspace page
    Youtube live mando

  18. #293

    Question

    Since this thread began, I have learned to read notation.




  19. #294
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Tangent OR
    Posts
    842

    Default

    Ok everyone... think of all the practice time y'all have spent on this discourse

    Cheers,

    Rob
    Follow the Flatt Stanley Incident on Facebook

    Listen to original tune "When You Fly" by my old band The Kindreds

  20. #295
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Alameda, California
    Posts
    2,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (DMC @ Oct. 21 2007, 20:40)
    The 'theory' in question is the idea that standard notation contains more information than tab. Where has anyone claimed you should accept this theory on face value due to the 'depth of their study'?
    Sinebar's orginal post asked a simple question:

    QUOTE]I know standard notation pretty good. So should I stick with standard notation and learn to apply it to the mandolin or would it be better to use tab?[[/QUOTE]

    There was nothing in the post about which format contains more information. That particular slant on the question has evolved over the last 12 pages.

    Lots of folks with a lot of experience have offered a opinions about which was the more useful format, and those opinions were based on a lot more than which format contained more information.

    I don't think anyone has done a serious pedagogical comparison to see which format is the better tool for conveying musical ideas in print. Until we put a million mandolin-playing monkeys in a room with tab and another million monkeys in another room with notation and see which room learns the Bach partitas faster, we probably can't determine that particular point beyond anecdotal experience.

    However, the professional teachers in our little community seem to concur that the notation is--at this moment, anyway--the more fluid, expressive, and versatile tool for jotting down musical ideas and conveying them on paper to other musicians.

    But setting aside the particular efficacy of tab versus notation as applied to the mandolin, there are other important reasons for choosing to learn notation and how it applies to the mandolin instead of learning only tab.

    Not least of these is the fact that there is an enormous repository of potential mandolin music that is available only in notation. For anyone interested in classical music, jazz, or traditional music from almost anywhere, the ability to read notation will open up far more repertoire than the relatively thin smattering currently available in tab.

    Just one guy's opinion.
    Just one guy's opinion
    www.guitarfish.net

  21. #296

    Default

    Yes. Well put.

    I was referring to an argument that arose during the development of this thread. I should have made that clear.

    I believe notation has the potential to convey more information than tab but that tab definitely has its uses. My point is merely that my belief isn't based on a simple appeal to authority. And no one (as far as I can tell though I'm not gonna read the whole thread again!!) has suggsted we should accept this view simply because they are a professional player or teacher.

    Should have also wrote, like you, that this is just my opinion.

Similar Threads

  1. Standard notation ?
    By Ernie Campbell in forum Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks
    Replies: 21
    Last: Mar-03-2008, 11:32am
  2. Looking for tab or standard notation for
    By Steve_R in forum General Mandolin Discussions
    Replies: 1
    Last: Aug-22-2007, 11:57am
  3. Standard notation to tab
    By markd in forum Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks
    Replies: 1
    Last: Jul-25-2007, 2:56pm
  4. Learning Standard Notation
    By ztheday in forum Theory, Technique, Tips and Tricks
    Replies: 34
    Last: Aug-22-2006, 5:12pm
  5. Notes in standard notation
    By in forum General Mandolin Discussions
    Replies: 9
    Last: Mar-06-2005, 8:55pm

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •