lgc "Sam Bush is a great mando play but there are guys who learned every lick he has and can play a thousand things he can't. He's just good for the business." Plueeezzzz you can not believe this. That's about the lamest thing I have heard here for a while. It is not ones ability to copy someone else that makes them a great musician. It is the ability to interpret the melody, the dynamics, and feeling of a song and create a break or back up that fits it and no one is better at that than Sam!
You should be more diplomatic in your posts. You can disagree without being insulting. It discredits your point and makes you sound ignorant, which I"m sure you are not.
-1
I know Sam. I seriously doubt there are many that can play anything he can't! He is a rare talent without question. Whether he deserves mandolin player of the year is another question. His peers seem to think so and I believe that is a group that seems to know what a mandolin player of the year should be able to play and sound like! Most of his "peers" are incredible professional players that could easily be player of the year themselves, but they chose Sam. If he is good enough for them, he's good enough for me.
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
I won't quibble with your point about voting, because as someone has already pointed out, I have no vote. I won't spend much time on your less than helpful attitudes.Originally Posted by (Ken Sager @ Oct. 07 2007, 20:12)
I will say that what I said was offered as a basis for discussion of what passes for market-leading songwriting, not as a target for smug sharpshooting. Y'all probably miss some good conversations.
I also think that the ability to process and replicate large amounts of music is a big component of being a great musician. I imagine Sam knows MANY of Monroe's breaks inside and out. He also probably could play a lot that Monroe couldn't. I'm not saying he is a better artist but that he has a greater degree of technical ability and there are people who learned many of Sam's msuical innovations and have made great strides for music of their own. Most great art and innovation is done by youth. He plays many of the same licks now as when he was in NGR. I don't judge him for that but the torch has been passed on.
-1
I stopped being diplomatic when you did by stating that Sam was only good for business. I guess I felt there was no credibility for mandolin playing in your statement but you are entitled to your opinion and I apologies for slandering it.
lgc - Who are these mandolin players you speak of? I haven't heard them and am always looking for new things to learn myself.
lgc...I knew Bill Monroe also. He could pick anything he wanted. His technical prowress was not any less than any of the greats of this day. He chose a particular style that suited him, but believe me, there is a reason he is still considered to be the greatest in the BG field. Many top pickers have spent thier whole lives trying to do what he could and still can only do a portion of it. Each of the great ones have contributed thier own touch, but be sure they are not limited to just one style of playing.
Herchell Sizemore is certainly not a Monroe clone and plays a completely different style, but I've heard him play some Monroe stuff that was as good as the Monroe himself. That is why these guys get to the top. The level of talent coupled with lots and LOTS of practice and innovate thinking has brought them to the forefront. It is not a competition, but rather a discovery. Don't put one down to satisfy your ego or lack of accomplishment. Each deserves all the credit they have been given.
We are fortunate to have so many great mandolin players on the scene currently. The future looks incredibly bright for the mandolin as so many of the young kids coming up can play things we could not even imagine at that age. In time some of them will rise to the top and some will only rise a ways. Let's be thankful for the ones we have, encourage the young ones, and do the best we can with what talent and time we have. Competition is fine, but often misplaced.
Have a Great Day!
Joe Vest
The awards show (really any such thing) is much too arbitrary to realistically refelct a true state of art and its practitioners. Yes, Sam is now considered old guard. The new breed has its heroes and great ones. When the awards brain trust catches up with that is anybody's guess. I for one like the fact that some of the old guys are still considered 'the best'. That will inevitably change.
Tony Rice said it best about Sam (and I paraphrase)
"Whenever he TOUCHES the instrument, it's valuable"
"Don't put one down to satisfy your ego or lack of accomplishment. "
How exactly did I put anyone down? I have not said that Sam Bush is not a great musician. I did not say that he has not greatly contributed to mandolin playing. But it does seem strange that one would not be allowed to think those things. I misspoke when I said Sam was only good for business-I did mean that he won a BG award because it was good for business. I merely stated an opinion that you seemingly disagree with. I think many mandolin player desreve credit and that credit is sparringly spread around. There are so many great mandolin players who are just as good as Sam Bush(meaning they are wonderful) who get little or no recognition from the BG or acoustic music world.
Frank Wakefield hasn't been playing BG for over 50 years and he also wasn't one of the most innovative. In the last 10 years he hasn't put out a bunch of wonderful recordings that are not even really on the radar. I guess my point was misread because I'm fo more recognition, not less.
-1
"Frank Wakefield hasn't been playing BG for over 50 years and he also wasn't one of the most innovative. In the last 10 years he hasn't put out a bunch of wonderful recordings that are not even really on the radar. I guess my point was misread because I'm fo more recognition, not less." Ok now I am really confused to the points you are trying to make. Are you trying to talk backwards like Frank does?
Also I am curious who these mandolin players are that know everything Sam can do plus thousands of things more?? If that is true they deserve much more than an award.
One wonders how many times you have seen Sam Bush in person, or buy his music or instructional DVD's, and yet keep posting incorrect info about him?
15 years ago he made an instructional DVD, breaking down Bill Monroe's style and several of his tunes, note for note.
The style he plays now is a lot different from the NGR days. He rarely even plays NGR tunes anymore. He included 1 NGR song on his new DVD out of 17.
Sam stills gets shunned by certain radio stations and festivals. He still gets criticized and judged wrongly by people who can't get past the late 60's when Bluegrass started progressing past the traditional style. #Those who do this, actually are less learn-ed than what they actually know from experience or "knowledge"!
Molon Labe
I'm not gonna take that bait. I think a BG award should go to what I consided a BG musician. I think the same people win time and again and that marginalizes many great artists. And like all award shows, there is a high degree of business involved, which taints the validity of their reflection of artistry. Sam Bush is a really good musician. I just don't think he was the best reflection of a BG mandolin player last year.
-1
Well I got into bluegrass because of hearing Strength in Numbers, and have followed it back to Monroe, Flatt and Scruggs, etc.
As for other players being able to play every lick Sam B can...I'm sure you're right. But I've never heard anyone play rhythm the way he can.
James
Regarding how "good" Sam Bush is:
I have two recordings that settled the topic for me.
1. Sam Bush and David Grisman mandolin workshop (Merlefest in the 90s?)
2. Bush, O' Brien, Flinner, and Emmitt mando workshop at Grey Fox in the 90s.
In both situations, Sam Bush was the monster in the groupings. Grisman is great and has his sweet tremolo and signature licks. The others were also great, each with their great stylistic identities. But, Sam Bush was playing within' his rhythmic, aggressive style and he was just clearly the ace. I don't know about shining so brightly in the studio, as that may be Grisman's fortay, but I do know that in that live, intimate setting, he was the brightest light.
Obviously, this is my opinion and that's all, but it was so obvious to me listening to the recordings.
Hamlett Two-Point
Eastman MD805
Schertler DYN-M + Yellow
http://www.youtube.com/ktbriggs
https://www.facebook.com/kevin.briggs.1213
I'm just miffed that David Lee Roth didn't win vocalist of the year. #
The thing is, awards shows are not really about recognizing the best. That's the stated goal but the real goal is to promote the overall genre, be it movies, pop music or whatever. That's why awards shows are held. They're promotional. It's just a bit too crass to come right out and say that.
I remember the blazing controversy over Bruce Hornsby winning an IBMA award many years back. At the time, I had a bluegrass radio show on a major-market country station and what I observed is that following that, people around the station who couldn't even spell bluegrass where suddenly interested and asking me questions. So quibbling about who actually wins the awards (like fighting about best picture in the oscars) is really kind of missing the point of the whole thing.
For me, when you're talking about musicians at the level most of the nominees are at, "best" becomes an almost meaningless term. I mean was Van Gogh better than Rembrant, Mozart better than Beethoven? Even in sports, you're only the best the year you win. "Best" has a short shelf life.
My less than helpful attitudes?I won't quibble with your point about voting, because as someone has already pointed out, I have no vote. I won't spend much time on your less than helpful attitudes.
I will say that what I said was offered as a basis for discussion of what passes for market-leading songwriting, not as a target for smug sharpshooting. Y'all probably miss some good conversations.
Less talk, more pick.
Attitude's one thing but what about your smug sharpshooting?
Evidently he read something in your post the rest of us didn't. #
GVD
GVD
I suppose I could have commented on his reply that what he "offered as a basis for discussion of what passes for market-leading songwriting" was nothing more than a bland statement of his opinion which isn't very arguable, quite frankly. I'm not disagreeing, but stating an opinion as a basis for discussion isn't as stimulating as stating the flaws in the process that lead to the flawed outcome of the awards. That seems to be the more interesting topic at hand here, not his opinion of whether the Stringdusters should have won song of the year ("YIKES").Attitude's one thing but what about your smug sharpshooting?
Evidently he read something in your post the rest of us didn't. #
GVD
Now that was smug, but not very sharp... and certainly not helpful...
If you want to change the process join at the professional level and vote. That's my best suggestion. That, and attend the IBMA membership meetings and bring up your topics for discussion there where it might be meaningful.
Love to all,
Ken
Less talk, more pick.
Something tells me that Mr. Bush cares less about this stuff than y'all do.
Curt
IMHO no one, but no one, can put the Texas Fiddle feeling into a mandolin tune like Sam Bush. Not even considering all the other stuff he can do. Just go listen to some of his breaks on old Kenny Baker records ("Make Me a Little Boat" from Frost on the Pumpkins). And who did Doc Watson call when he wanted a bluegrass band to back him on his bluegrass project? I consider Sam a very worthy recipient. He loves and respects BG, he wastes no opportunity to pay homage to the fathers.
It saddens me that this discussion has devolved into a shouting match between members of this forum. I think it would be a wonderful thing if more people joined IBMA and voted or if IBMA would extend its franchise to fan members as well as professional ones. As it is, one of the most gratifying aspects of writing my blog and announcing my posts on various forums has been my recent realiztion that professional musicians and others on the professional side in the bluegrass world read the blogs and forums and are intensely interested in what the fan base thinks. I should imagine that when the discussion turns from thoughtful to spiteful, they turn us off and start going elsewhere. I'm pleased that, this year at least, the voting membership made some less than totally obvious choices and gave awards to some people whose year or career richly deserve recognition. - Ted
Ted Lehmann
http://www.tedlehmann.blogspot.com
Not an argument (because arguing on matters of taste is futile) but many times, as I browse the catalogs, I wonder: are there any fiddle players besides Stuart Duncan, any Dobro® players besides Jerry Douglas, any mandolin players besides Sam Bush?
I think everyone needs to go to this link and check out the past winners especially the mandolin catagory.
IBMA Past Winners
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