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Thread: Humidifiers

  1. #1
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    Hey gang, this is my first post on the cafe, I've been a member since '05 and have learned a tremendous amount from the collective wisdom of this site. I have a question; I live in Colorado. We're a very dry climate. I've experimented with a few different humidifiers, but they all seem to go dry in about a day or so. I've got a Krishot A that needs to be humidified, I've yet to humidify it in the 2 years I've owned her. I know, I know, I'm ashamed of myself. I used one of those snake lookin humidifiers, but as I said earlier, it went dry way to quick and I just quit using it. Any thoughts on a humidifier that fits in the case (obviously) that only needs filling every week or so?
    Also, if its not been humidified in the past few years, should I begin humidifying it now, or would that cause problems?
    Krishot A5

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    I have experimented a lot with this and here's the problem: The fact that your humidifer dries out in a day means IT'S WORKING. I actually spent a bunch of money on humidifiers that would go longer between refills. Then it dawned on me: If it is not getting the humidity out there, what good is it? The problem with those snakes, though, is that they don't hold that much water and they can drip inside your instrument, which is bad. What you want is something that holds a lot of water without any possibility of dripping, but gets that water out there effectively. Here is my inexpensive, but effective, solution:

    Take a soap case, like you would use to take a bar of soap on a camping trip. Get a new household sponge like you would use in the kitchen. Drill or punch a bunch of holes in the top of the soap case. Cut the sponge to fit the soap case and put in it there. You now have about $3 max invested in a humidifier that works better than the commercial ones.

    Experiment getting the sponge as wet as it can get without dripping or releasing water when you shake the case. Put the soap case in your instrument case along with a calibrated hygrometer. Check it from time to time. Figure out how often you have to re-wet the sponge for the desired humidity (45-55%). If you can't get the humidity up with one home-made humidifer, make a second and put that in too.

    Don't worry that the humidifier is not actually in the instrument itself. That is actually a good thing. First, it can't drip inside your instrument on the bare wood, and second, your whole instrument needs humidity, not just the inside. Humidity will completely equalize itself throughout the case and inside the instrument within a several hours of the case being continuously closed. So overnight, all the air in the case, including inside the instrument, will be at the same humidity. So if you take your instrument out a couple of times a day for a few hours, you will still be fine.

    But if you live in a really dry area and you open your case a lot, you are going to have to re-wet as often as it takes. Also, I don't think your instrument would be hurt by humidifying after not doing so for a long time, but to be safe you should up the humidity gradually at first. Also at first, you may find you instrument going sharp when its in the case and you may find the action getting slightly higher and you will have to adjust. But in the long run, you instrument will thank you.

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    Thanks for the advice; I really like your idea! I will see about the soap container and sponge. I've got a form fitting case, so hopefully there will be room enough in the case for the soap box. If not, it certainly puts me on the right track!
    Thanks for your input!
    Krishot A5

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Mike:

    There should be enough room, but if there isn't the "mini" version of the same idea is to use plastic 35mm film containers. For those, I punch holes in the top and bottom.




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    At the risk of being called a heretic, I'll add my opinion that the oft-cited "need" for accessory instrument humidifiers is generally overblown. Unless your instrument spends the majority of its life out-of-doors, your regional climate is mostly irrelavent. What matters is the relative humidity where your instrument lives, which is typically alongside YOU, inside your home.

    I've lived all my life in Tucson, Arizona, a dry, 2,500 ft-high desert. I gave up on humidifiers many years ago, as the humidity inside my home rarely dropped below 30%, even when the official RH is in the single digits. None of my solid-wood instruments (two Rosewood/Cedar Classical Guitars, a Cypress/Spruce Flamenco, two violins, and now two mandolins) have ever suffered damage from low humidity. But I HAVE dealt with the effects of over-humidifiing; tubbiness, slow response, and tarnished frets.

    I'm in an industry in which we deal with moisture entrapment in poorly-ventilated roofing systems, and I can tell you that the amount of water vapor a person produces while going about their daily routine is astounding.

    Before you go to all the trouble of screwing around with humidifiers, get an accurate meter and measure your home over an extended period. You may well find that you're instrument isn't the least bit thirsty.

    If you do find that you need in-case humidification, I STRONGLY recommend the syringe-filled units from Plant Waves, if they'll fit in your case. Be sure to use filtered water, or the "sponge" will become calcified. My experience with Damp-its tells me that they are a complete waste of time and are far more likely to leak.

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Respectfully, I can't recommend the Planet Waves units. I tried thier hygromter and it was the least accurate, but most expensive, unit I have had. Thier syringe-filled humdifier developed mold within a few months of use. I have never had that happen with any other humidifier and I have used many different brands.




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    As a matter of practicality, since you have had your mandolin in Colorado for two years already, I would assume it has reasonably acclimatized to that area. It is better not to cause humidity swings in your instrument if you can avoid it. The extremes of humidity are what will cause damage, especially if they happen quickly. Over humidification can be a real problem, so you want to guard against that too. There is no easy all encompassing answer, you have to be ever vigilant. Unless you are experiencing problems with your mandolin I would recommend gently humidifying if at all.

    There are some other threads on this subject that were discussed over the last few months.

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    Yeah...What Michael said. Be very careful with any humidity enhancing system that may put raw water next to, on, or in your mandolin. It can easily do much more damage than the humidity issues you are concerned about. The problem with humidity is the swings more than the humidity itself. If you live in Florida it will be over humidified much of the time, but usually not an issue. The same with dry climates. Once it acclimates (yours has), then it is fine. If you were to travel often from high to low humidities you would have a far greater problem. Just be careful with humidifiers. Mandolins have done well for a very long time before anyone thought of inventing them!
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    Violins and Mandolins Stephanie Reiser's Avatar
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    My house is heated with a woodstove, which really dries out the winter air. My fret ends can even grow longer. I think what is best for me is to keep my instruments and instrument-making woods in one room behind a closed door, and using a humidifer - one of those units that you sometimes see which sits on the floor and goes about its work. This way, instead of adding water to a bunch of tiny devices I can be done with it by adding water to one appliance.
    Does anyone else use this method?
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    I just live in England - that's quite enough humidity for me !!,
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    Excuse my ignorance but what is the "ideal" humidity for a mandolin? I have not been keeping mine in the case (so it is easily assessible to pick up and play if only for a couple of minutes) but in a room which varies between 30% and 45% (yesterday afternoon vs this morning as I write).
    The Old Sarge

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    Martin Guitars publishes that thier instruments should be kept at 45-55% RH. I found a violin maker's site on the web that said thier violins should be kept at 40-60%. A classical guitar site I found said 40-70% and also stated that over-humidifcation only starts to happen above 75% RH. My guess is that you would be hard-pressed to get an instrument up to 75% in Colorado. But again, make the change gradually. All I have read says that sudden changes are dangerous. If it were me, I would up the humidity, 5% a week until you get where you want to go.

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    I bought a radio shack meter; it measures humidity and temperature. OK I really got if for my cigars, which reqauire 70 degrees at 70%. And the meters you get with most humidors are not accurate, and many don't even respond to changes in humidity.

    Anyway I discovered that while I keep my cigars at 70 - 70, my house is usually 65 - 50 in the winter, so I don't worry about it.

    I think it was Big Joe who said that instruments require what we require - i.e. if its comfortable for us, its fine for them. (Sorry if I mis-attributed this.)
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    I use Oasis humidifiers. And always use distilled water. The minerals in tap water make it go funky. I keep the room that my instruments are in, humidified to at least 40% in the dead of winter.



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    I'm in the high desert of north Colorado and use (5 years) a couple of ultrasonic humidifiers one of which is always on in the room where several instruments hang. I'm saving up for a "hair hydrometer" which are supposed to be extremely accurate (I don't like things that run on batteries).

    I second the "soap dish and sponge" case method as this was recommended to me by a highly respected Denver luthier as the best way to go. He warned not to use anything in a case that may take water out of the air when the unit dries out (the models using clay are an example).
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    Registered User Steve G's Avatar
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    Check these out. I lived in the southwest for years and found them in a violin shop. The best I ever used by far:

    http://www.finecases.com/browse/arion/arion-3131.html

    Don't try to get them on a plane though as the absorbant crystals a jell.



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    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    I keep three hygrometers in my house, one with my most valued instrument inside a Calton case, the other in the living room, and a third is built into my room humidifier. The room I humidify (where all my instruments are stored) is kept at 40% (it sometimes climbs to 60% in wet weather), the rest of the house fluctuates between 12-60% depending on whether any windows are left open. The hygrometer in the Calton always reads 40-45%.

    I haven't put water inside an instrument case for a few years. I like humidifying the house instead.

    I'm moving into a new place next month and I'm already planning a whole house humidifier attachment for the Trane furnace/AC unit.

    Peace of mind is worth spending a few bucks on.

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  18. #18
    Registered User Steve G's Avatar
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    I also used a whole house humidifier in a room where I kept my instruments when I lived in AZ. I got it at Sears for $80. I changed filters quarterly and got a bottle of Bacteriastat to add to the water. I kept it at 40-50 and it worked great. It saved hundreds if not thousands in instrument repairs over the years.
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  19. #19
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    It's been my experience that case humidifiers tend to humidfy the case itself more than the contents. #That's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the case doesn't get so wet that problems start. #But think about this for a moment. #If you put a humidifier that holds four or five tablespoons of water in the case and seal it up, then you see that it's dry in a couple of days so you do it again and again, where has the water gone? #Remember that by this time we're talking about what might be nearly a cup of water in a reasonably sealed environment. #If that much water were absorbed that quickly by the instrument's finish or the raw wood (mostly the fingerboard and the inside of the sound box), things would be pretty soggy. #It's the lining of the case that holds the water. #Isn't it the case itself that becomes the humidity reservoir?



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    Some thoughts:
    [1] Get a good reliable hygrometer and consult it regularly. The "40-60%" rule sounds reasonable.
    [2] I keep all my li'l buddies in the basement. Stays the most humid during the winter, and in the summer, I have a dehumidifier going. Side benefit of the dehumidifier is that you can use the water it takes out of the air, as the equivalent of distilled water (no minerals or additives) to fill your humidifiers in the winter.
    [3] In my former apartment, where dryness was much more of a problem, I would get the plastic bags that wrap instrument cases for shipment, from my friend at the music store. Then I would put the Dampit (or other humidifier) inside the instrument's sound hole, wrap the instrument in the plastic bag, and put the instrument inside the case. This kept the effects of the humidifer confined to the instrument itself; the case material wasn't absorbing any of the moisture (at least only a minimal amount). It was a bit of a hassle to un-bag and re-bag the instrument when I took it out to play, but I was relatively confident that I had done all I could to keep it humidified.

    Now that I store the (cased) instruments in the basement, and check my hygrometers periodically, I don't feel the need to put a plastic membrane around each one. So far I've been OK.

    Now, ask me what happens when the remains of a hurricane drift north through upstate New York, and the basement gets humid to the point of flooding!
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    I spoke to a friend who is an excellent luthier and deals with hundreds of vintage instruments. He says keep away from the in-case humidifiers and in the winter months -- at least for those of use in areas where we need heating -- get a house humdifier.

    We have forced air heat in our house (a little north of New York City) and last winter I checked my humidity and it was close to 25%. Bad for instruments and bad for people as well.

    I got one of those house humidifiers (mine from Sears) and run it in front of the intake duct to the heatintg system and was albel to get the house humidified to about 40-45%. Made a big difference in comfort for both instruments and people.
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  22. #22

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    Here is a humidor that I've been using for about three years now. #I converted it from a store cigar humidor display case. #It uses less than a quart of water for the entire New England winter and the humidity level can be adjusted.

    This works well for me and my fiddles and mandolins.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Ken Sager @ Oct. 14 2007, 10:14)
    I keep three hygrometers in my house, one with my most valued instrument inside a Calton case, the other in the living room, and a third is built into my room humidifier. The room I humidify (where all my instruments are stored) is kept at 40% (it sometimes climbs to 60% in wet weather), the rest of the house fluctuates between 12-60% depending on whether any windows are left open. The hygrometer in the Calton always reads 40-45%.

    I haven't put water inside an instrument case for a few years. I like humidifying the house instead.

    I'm moving into a new place next month and I'm already planning a whole house humidifier attachment for the Trane furnace/AC unit.

    Peace of mind is worth spending a few bucks on.

    Love to all,
    Ken
    I've done basically what Ken suggests: bought an Oregon Scientific temp/humidity station with a couple of remote sensors. One is in my shop right now and one is in the case with my mando and fiddle. I intend to put one in with my wife's guitar too so I'm monitoring a couple instrument cases remotely. I've also got other electronic and analog hygrometers around the house... they seem to agree that my house wants to be between about 15% and 20% RH in the winter if I don't humidify.

    Ken: When Cate and I moved into our house I had a whole house humidifier installed so I wouldn't have to hassle with it. When they first hooked it up it didn't pull the humidity up above about 30% and I went back and forth with the outfit that sold it to me and installed it since I told them I wanted to be near 40%. They finally got it better by drawing the water from a hot water line, but I'm still thinking about getting a room humidifier to boost the humidity in the side of the house that most of the instruments live. The other problem is that the seasons in between heating with my furnace/humidifier and cooling with my evaporative cooler tend to be dry in my house.

    Anyway, I recommend that you do your research well and maybe plan on some spot humidification even with the whole house humidifier. Regardless... pumping some humidity into our houses in this desert environment is not a bad thing for us and our pets anyway.

    Paul
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  24. #24
    8 Fingers, 2 Thumbs Ken Sager's Avatar
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    Excellent advice, Paul. Thanks. I'll probably keep a small room humidifier running in my instrument room, too. 40% is my goal, too. For the money I'm going to spend it better be fairly controllable.
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  25. #25
    Registered User Brian Ray's Avatar
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    When I notice my mandos getting a bit dry, I throw a Drymistat Cigar Humidor Humidifier in my case for a day or two... problem solved. Looks like the same stuff used in the violin humidifier above... but much cheaper. I use them for my cigars too! YMMV...

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