Post a picture of your lyon&healy mando

[Bill Halsey]

More A&B details...

[Bill Halsey]

Style A on the left...

[Bill Halsey]

Guard plate attachment...

[brunello97]

Ah, Bill, thanks, that is what I was imagining was under there. You say it also attaches to the fingerboard? Is that a glue joint? I don't see a ledger of some kind like on my Gibson.
Great quality photos!
Mick

[squirrelabama]

Bill- Do you know of a resource to supply/fabricate the knob on the extendable knee post for the Style A?? Mine is missing, and would love to get something on there.... any ideas? Thx- Geoff

[Bill Halsey]

Geoff, I imagine anyone with a small hobby or toolroom lathe could make the little black knob fairly easily. The original appears to be plastic, but is more likely made of the same vulcanised black stuff as the other fittings. The knob measures 0.393" dia. x 0.245" long, with a bit of a flat on the end.

[Bill Halsey]

Ah, Bill, thanks, that is what I was imagining was under there. You say it also attaches to the fingerboard? Is that a glue joint? I don't see a ledger of some kind like on my Gibson.

Mick, the screw is the only attachment, no glue joint. When snugged down, the guard is brought tight against the angle of the side of the fingerboard and the soundboard. This arrangement is fairly solid and suspends the rest of the guard over the soundboard with about 3/16" clearance to the round felt bumper.

[Bob DeVellis]

Here's the pickguard patent illustration. The patent is a Design patent, protecting the appearance of the patented device, not its function or composition. So, if the material itself is patented, it must be under a more generic patent not specific to the pickguard.



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[Bob DeVellis]

Here's the Design patent for the overall shape of the symmetrical A. The recurve has been exaggerated in the illustration. Also, the fact that the design, and not the construction per se, is what's being patented is underscored by the omission of the neck midline lamination in the illustration. Since that's a structural, rather than design, feature, it was left off of this Design patent (and was never patented, as far as I know).



.

[brunello97]

Great information Bob. What else do you (or anyone) know about Walter I Kirk?

Mick

[squirrelabama]

Love these old catalogue pix and patent pix....where does one find them for home use, (aka framing and decorating one's music room?) Did Kirk have an apprentice named Spock?

[squirrelabama]

Bill- Thanks for the measurments on that knob. I know someonen here in town who could probably create one for me, however I'm thinking of going with fossilized ivory or something if that is doable. May just end up w/rosewood or ebony. Thanks !!

[Jim Garber]

I'm having an assymetrical L&H style A inspired mando built. I also feel the tuner face area is the only weak element in an otherwise perfect design (IMO). I may go with a slot head configuration while maintaining the violin scroll.

May we ask who is the builder?

Frankly I would steer away from the slothead. They are a royal pain to restring. I would prefer a flat peghead.

Just curious: why do you say that the weak element is the tuner face area? Are you talking structurally or aesthetically?

[markishandsome]

Frankly I would steer away from the slothead. They are a royal pain to restring.

Frankly I think that's an exaggeration

[Bill Halsey]

I'm with Jim on this one. Some years ago I made myself a slotted-head 12-string guitar -- big mistake. The headstock, not the guitar.

[Jim Garber]

My main bowlback is a slothead and while I would not trade or sell it, I never look fwd to restringing. Luckily the Calace strings I use seem to last a long time. Then again, it may soon be that time again.

As far as the Patent question, go to Google. Click on the little arrow that says "more" and go to Patents. it is a little arcane but you will figure it out. Wastes hours of time...

[brunello97]

[QUOTE= (jgarber @ Nov. 07 2007, 20:16)]

Just curious: why do you say that the weak element is the tuner face area? Are you talking structurally or aesthetically?

Aah, now this discussion is getting somewhere....My assumption that the aesthetics were being called into question. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Jamie, can you be more descriptive of your critique of the peghead area? I'm not trying to goad an argument or anything, just interested in hearing more how people respond to design issues.

Seen flat on, the head on these has often seemed odd to me. From an oblique angle I like them really quite a bit.

Other thoughts?

Mick

[markishandsome]

My main bowlback is a slothead and while I would not trade or sell it, I never look fwd to restringing.

You'd have to be pretty masochistic to look forward to restringing Sure slotheads are a little more time-consuming than the flat kind, but why let a little inconvenience get in the way of something truly important like aesthetics.

An old friend:

[Bob DeVellis]

Other than the fact that Walter I. Kirk was the principal instrument designer for Lyon & Healy, I don't know any other details about him. He's they guy whose name occurs on a wide range of utility and design patents issued to L&H in the teens and '20s. I think I've come across some additional information about him in the past but can't recall where that might have been. I'm always struck by how design and acoustic engineers who were in many respects comparable to Loar at companies other than Gibson are so obscure whereas Lloyd is a household name in the mandolin community. Kirk may not quite rise to that level but who knows. If we knew more about him, we might find that his resume' is actually pretty impressive.

[Jim Garber]

That is a nice-looking headstock on that 12-string.

I have spoken to a few pro classical mandolin players and if it weren't for the love of a certain vintage instrument they would prefer the solid headstock.

Yes, masochistically speaking, even with the flat headstocks, I often stab myself with the end of an e-string.

[Jim Garber]

Here is my Pandini headstock. Perhaps you could adapt it with a scroll for the L&H clone.

[Bill Halsey]

I'll have to allow that the lighter weight headstock, along with a short scale & heavy strings, did achieve the desired result of attenuating the "stringy" sustain while producing a fat, punchy sound. Don't know if the characteristics of the lightweight head would carry over to the mando.

This design was a nod to our old pal, Richard Schneider...

[billhay4]

What's the difficulty with re-stringing slotheads? Seems to me you'd just thread the string through the hole and wrap it back under itself on the other side of the post to lock it in place like I do with regular tuners.
I'm speaking out of ignorance here, but am curious as I think slotheads offer some advantages in an instrument, namely saving weight.
Thanks,
Bill

[markishandsome]

You can see some of the issues looking at my pic above.

a. It's hard to get your fingers or the string into the slot area because it's real narrow and there's all those other strings in your way. You also can't wrap the string around the post by going over the end of the shaft as the end is embedded in the head.

b. The shafts don't have that funny tapered part that helps keep the windings neat. You can see on mine that there's a fair bit of space between individual windings on a single string. That's a recipe for an out of tune mandolin.

c. The strings can rub against the wood at the edge of the slot, which also doesn't help tuning stability and can lead to excessive breakage (followed by excessive restringing).

Problem a. really isn't so bad unless you have fat fingers, and problems b. and c. aren't really a problem if you don't mind retuning a lot. It's getting it strung correctly, such that b. and c. are avoided, that makes it harder than non-slotted.

In summary, it's as easy as a.b.c.

Really though, in the grand scheme of things, it's not such a big deal, IMHO.

[billhay4]

Thanks, Mark, for a cogent explanation. I hadn't given it much thought beyond the weight issue.
Bill