Mandolin tuning problem

[KimRoulias]

Can anybody tell me why my mandolin won't stay in tune the further up the neck I go? This problem just started here recently (after I changed the strings). I can start with the mandolin "in tune," according to the intellitouch tuner, but by about the fourth fret, the notes start getting sharp or flat. I would appreciate any advice on this. Thank you. (I'm using D'Addario J-74 strings on a 10-month old Gibson, in case that bit of info helps.) Also, I'm kind of new at this . . . should each note be in tune all the way up? in other words, on the 12th fret on the D string, shouldn't that still be an in-tune D? Or is that too much to expect?

[Ivan Kelsall]

Almost definitely a bridge problem. The only other causes could be out of place frets - unheard of on a Gibson,or a heck of a high action,causing unwanted stretching of the strings when fretted,but your fingers would be shredded if that was the case.
Using your tuner,play all the strings open (not pressed down)& make sure that they are in tune as close as you can get them. THEN - press each pair of strings down in turn at the 12th fret position & check the tuning again. If the bridge is in the correct position,then your tuner 'needle' will be exact centre,or very close to it.
If the tuner shows the needle way off to the right,then the strings are 'sharp'
& the notes are too high. In this case the bridge needs to be moved towards the tailpiece to lower the pitch of the strings.If the nedle moves to the left then the strings are flat & the bridge needs to be moved towards the fingerboard. Slacken all the strings off & move the bridge the 'way it needs to go' by a tiny fraction. Tune one pair of strings up to ANY note that your tuner will detect - it doesn't have to be the correct one for the string - & check the open & 12th fret notes again. Keep doing this until the 2 notes show the tuner needle in the centre position. That indicates that your bridge is in the correct position (at least for that string).
Having done that,& making sure that the bridge isn't sloping backward or forward when looked at from the side or that one end of the bridge isn't further forward or backward when looked at from the top than the other end,tune all the strings up until each register a note on the tuner. With luck,when you play the open notes & the notes at the 12th fret,they should all be the same - or very close,a tiny fraction doesn't matter.
Now tune your Mandolin up to proper pitch & check the open & fretted notes again. They should give a tuner reading very close to centre position. If they do,you can then 'fine tune' your Mandolin by tuning each pair of strings to each other,very likely it won't need any or very little to bring the strings into unison across the fingerboard.
That's the way i've done it in the past,other members may have a variation on the theme. While you're re-positioning the bridge with the strings slackened off,now is a good time to adjust the playing action if you need to do so,
Hope this helps - saska

[MikeEdgerton]

It isn't too much to expect. What you have is an intonation problem. The bridge was most likely moved slightly the last time you changed strings.

[Tim2723]

And welcome to the Cafe, Kim!

Even though you're new to the Cafe, you don't sound like a newbie at all, though you might be new to mandolin. #You have a new, expensive, high-end instrument and you're using all the right lingo. #Both those things are very un-newbie like.

I hope the problem is only bridge placement, and if it is the instructions will fix it. #But if you're an experienced musician, perhaps you're asking about a more serious problem???

[Stanley Cox]

Hi Kim, All of the above, and might check the # of windings around the post. There is a jam at Love and War Monday the 26th. I Would be glad to take a look at it then.
Welcome to the Cafe.
Stanley

[MandoBen]

Make sure you only change one or two strings at a time in the future. Tune them up to pitch with your tuner and then move on to the next, this will prvent the bridge from moving around. Also check the angle of the bridge and make sure it did not start to lean forward as you tightened up the new strings, the brdge should tilt ever so slightly back towards the tailpiece to achieve the optimal downbearing on the top.

[Alex Fields]

When I read the topic, before reading the post, I was tempted to respond "what's causing it as that you are playing a mandolin."

But I have nothing productive to add because other people already gave good answers.

[KimRoulias]

Thanks to everybody for the great advice, especially Saska for giving me the highly specific, detailed instructions. I did move the bridge (the notes were all sharp at the 12th fret), and to my pleasant surprise, the notes stay in tune at the 12th fret! YAY! Happy picking! From now on, I only change one string at a time! The problem set in when I took it down to Larry Morgan's Music and Marcus showed me how to cut all the strings off at one time with some wire cutters. I didn't particularly think it was a good idea at the time . . . now I know it's not.

[John Rosett]

Marcus showed me how to cut all the strings off at one time with some wire cutters. I didn't particularly think it was a good idea at the time . . . now I know it's not.

That method works pretty well for b*njos, though.

[Tim2723]

A box cutter works well on a b*njo too!

I like to take all the strings off once in a while to give it a really good cleaning and polish. But you have to go through the whole bridge procedure of course.

[Crowder]

If you want to change all of them at once, say so you can clean the fingerboard, it's okay to tape the bridge in place with a couple of strips of masking tape. I usually do the two-at-a-time method myself.

[mandomaybe]

I have two questions from reading this thread:
what does the reference to # of windings on the post mean?
what is the issue with wire cutters on the strings (I'm not being facetious; I really don't know!)

[Tim2723]

I believe it refers to the number of times the string is wound around the tuner capstan. #Excessive winds add a lot of slack that can lead to tuning problems.

There's nothing specifically wrong with removing all the strings with wire cutters. #Sometimes you remove all the strings to clean and oil the fretboard so you can really get into the little spaces around the frets. #It's also a good time to lubricate the slots in the nut and bridge to make tuning easier. #You can tape the bridge down, but if you remove the bridge in the process, you have to put it back in the right place using the instructions above. #Even if you tape it down you sometimes have to make small adjustments.

There are any number of times you'll need to check and adjust your bridge, so this procedure is really very common. #Once you've done it a couple of times it's no big deal.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Careful guys - there's Banjer pickers lurking on here,
Saska

[mandosis]

hmmmm...anyone notice there hasn't been one reply with the ubiquitous mandocafe response: "have you searched the old posts?"

You guys are being downright gentlemanly tonight



Seriously Kim, the folks here do have a lot of good information to share, I'm glad you had positive responses.

[Michael Lewis]

I would not recommend cutting the strings with wire cutters if they are at tension. The sudden release of tension can be quite a shock to the structure. Sort of like popping the clutch on a car, it may not show up as damage immediately but greatly hastens the demise of stressed parts.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Incidentally - If you look at my Avatar pic.closely,you can see a small armchair in the background,just behind my Fern - the catalog name is - wait for it - MONROE !!!! . I thought of naming it Bill,but i just call it MISTER,
Saska

[Klondike Waldo]

Marcus showed me how to cut all the strings off at one time with some wire cutters. I didn't particularly think it was a good idea at the time . . . now I know it's not.

That method works pretty well for b*njos, though.

same problem with bridges on banjos, or any other instrument with a movable bridge, which is why any banjo player could have given the same advice about checking intonation at the 12th fret.

I don't care much for banjo-bashing jokes from mandolin players, or mandolin bashing jokes from banjo players- maybe because I started out as a professional musician playing tuba, later took up bagpipes, then banjo and now learning mandolin.
I don't play oboe or accordion (yet), but I've heard ALL the jokes

[Rick Lindstrom]

Here's a link to a page I set up to help a guy position the bridge on a mandolin I shipped to him with the bridge removed:

Bridge setup

It's pretty self explanatory. If you make a template like that when all is well with the intonation, you won't need to wonder where the bridge goes after a string change.

Rick

[Ivan Kelsall]

I just stick a small piece of masking tape on the top of the Mandolin on either side of the bridge & mark the foot positions front & back on each side. This way you don't have to align anything,
Saska

[Patrick Sylvest]

What a great board!

So I'm tuning my mandolin this morning in preparation of playing for Sunday Mass. I notice that the notes are a bit sharp up the neck and slap on my tuner and whaddya know, they're all a bit sharp when I compare open strings to 12th fret.

All right, search message board for 'intonation' and stumble upon this thread.

Thirty minutes later, I've carried out the procedure and corrected the problem!

Thanks 'saska' and thanks Mandolin Cafe! #

[MikeEdgerton]

...All right, search message board for 'intonation' and stumble upon this thread...

You're my kind of guy. For those that can't get search to work a lesson can be learned here. Seek and ye shall find.

[Red Henry]

I wouldn't touch the strings, at tension, with wirecutters. Remember that one of the great bluegrass guitar players and singers lost an eye when a mandolin A string he was changing snapped!

It's easy enough to wind the strings down, and I normally change them four at a time. Just make sure the bridge stays right.

Red

[Stanley Cox]

I usualy change them one at a time and it takes just as long.

Stanley