Pinky on the pickguard

[Bruce68]

I've been trying a variety right hand techniques since posting this thread, hoping to find the one that feels most comfortable. Strangely enough, I keep going back to pinky planting. I guess old habits really do die hard. I have this nagging suspicion that Mr.DelGrosso is not entirely wrong. He claims the picking action should come from your wrist, not your forearm, and that this bracing technique will keep you from picking from the elbow. It makes sense. Where I went wrong was by keeping my pinky too stiff. There's a time for stiff and there's a time for loose, but the overall shape of the hand remains the same, a loosely closed fist with an extended pinky, sometimes firmly posted, othertimes lightly brushing, but always there at the ready. Thanks for all your input guys, this forum is a priceless resource, a true blessing indeed!!

Bruce

[Alex Fields]

A few days is not long enough to get comfortable playing without planting...more like a few months or in some cases years depending on how much you practice. It will really benefit you down the road to be able to play perfectly well without planting, then if you really want to plant for some reason you can but only because you want to and not because you struggle to play otherwise. But best of luck to you and have fun playing.

[Soupy1957]

I kept doing the "pinky planting" thing....so I removed the pick guard, thinking that would stop it, and I found myself planting my pinky on the side of the Florida spot, or on the body of the mando...

So I cut it off!!

-Soupy1957

[Jim Broyles]

So, how long it take your hand to heal after you cut off your pinky?

[billkilpatrick]

So, how long it take your hand to heal after you cut off your pinky?

they grow back really quickly ...

- the lizard king

[8STRINGR]

I'm remember one of the videos broadcasted on CMT or GAC of Alison Krauss & Union Station where the camera shot it closed in on Adam Steffy's mandolin breaks showing his pinky actually holding on the bottom F hole (top portion near the fret board) when playing his breaks. Just the tip (pad) of his pinky. I think it provides kind of a "spring back" effect so your not fully relying on it to be all in the wrist.

I've tried it, seems to work but rarely ever use it in any of my breaks. I think the tune is "Every time you Say GoodBye" but not the "Live" version. This video was before Adam left AKUS. You can see Adam breefly in the background on the "Baby, Now That I've Found You" video on CMT Loaded during his background break. It looks like his "ring finger" is rested as well. #

I don't have his instructional DVD to see if he's using that same combination or not on his lessons. #

[Soupy1957]

Late at night I still imagine it's there, and try to pick my nose!!

-Soupy1957

[Alex Fields]

...lol.

I think anyone who locks himself down to one single right hand (or left hand) position is doing himself and his mandolin a great deal of dis-service.

That raised bit of plastic on the mandolin isn't a pick guard, it is a finger rest. The whole reason for a raised finger rest is so you can rest your finger on it without hurting the tone of the mandolin. The reason they were made easily removable on mandolins is because many players didn't want them since they can click loudly when the pick hits them.

[mandroid]

.02

try closed fingers , and the pinky fingernail as a picking depth guage to help your pick control.

angular momentum of faster spinning skater with their arms in was given as a metaphor to recommend closed fingers advantage.

and choke up on the pick, hold it so as to expose minimal pick.

the opposite of pick as mud flap guitar strumming..

[Alex Fields]

I think anyone who locks himself down to one single right hand (or left hand) position is doing himself and his mandolin a great deal of dis-service.

A free floating right hand can do anything any other right hand position can do and can do them as well. No other right hand position can do everything a free floating right hand can do as well. I have zero motivation to use any kind of planting tecnique with my righthand, whereas people who plant have plenty to gain by learning to play with a free right hand.

[Nick Triesch]

You know what folks? If a bunch of the best of the best touch or brush or plant, or use the fingerboard extention as a finger guide all this does not really matter. In my own style most of the time when I do a lead I have my 4th and 5th fingers planted against the extention. But when I move around I tend to bruch the top of my mandolin (no pickguard). Then when I chop I don't touch at all. I am not a great player but I can pick very clean and fast on songs like "Blackberry Blossom" with my fingers planted against the extention. There is really no right way or wrong way. It's whatever works for each player. To say a player should start off not touching his fingers is just not a correct statment. I would tell new players if it feels right to touch the top, then do so. Nick

[mandolirius]

It's also important to make the distinction between "planting" and "resting". The former is a fixed right hand position where the latter describes temporarily making contact with the finger rest with the tips of the fingers.

[nashvillebill]

Resting your pinky will limit your playing, I wouldn't get in the habbit of doing that. (snip)

It always kills me to hear this- ever seen Steffey? He must not have gotten the memo about not anchoring the pinky.

[Jim Broyles]

Resting your pinky will limit your playing, I wouldn't get in the habit of doing that. (snip)

It always kills me to hear this- ever seen Steffey? He must not have gotten the memo about not anchoring the pinky.

(John McGann)

Posted: Dec. 14 2007, 10:05
I know an excellent player who really wants to stop posting the pinky, but after 20+ years of playing, simply can't break the habit.

Yes, excellent player! He can hear an improvement in tone when he doesn't post and plays slowly, but getting things to feel natural would take a lot of slow work.

There are many many players who play excellent music in spite of less than optimal technique. I don't think that means it's a good excuse to copy them, however; what they make work for them might lead you up some blind alleys.

Common sense and physics and research and old fashioned sit-down-and-practice can help re-wire your brain (literally) to improve your technique.

Yes, Steffey plants. But he is one of the exceptions, not the rule.

[Nick Triesch]

There is no " rule". There are no exceptions. What ever way works for the player. If Steffey can play that fast, that clean, then it just does not matter. Nick

[Alex Fields]

If Steffey can play that fast, that clean, then it just does not matter.

There are two huge problems with your reasoning here.

First, the fact that a few players are able to get really good results despite less than optimal technique does not prove that said technique will not hinder most people.

Second, I bet he could get even better results if he didn't plant.

I don't know what Adam's thoughts are about this, but I know that Adam has told people that at least some things about his technique he regrets and just hasn't been able to break the habit--he was just never told early on not to do certain things and by the time he had thought about changing was already well into a habit. This is the case with a LOT of mandolin players, even really famous ones. There's never been a standardized technique for folk mandolin playing so people have just done whatever felt right or whatever their idols did, and the result is that a lot of players of all skill levels are using techniques which probably have an overall negative effect on their playing.

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).

[nolady]

Wow! I just started learning last week, using the same book. My first mandolin (Ovation Celebrity -returned it to the store) didn't even have a pickguard. My new one
Washburn (solid top) has a pickguard but my hand is too small to reach it. Also, when I rest my palm on the bridge I don't like the tone of the notes. Moving it a tad further up makes them sound sweeter.
So I'm very glad to see the comments here.

[jasona]

I don't want to be rude, but none of these arguments would come up if everyone were familiar with basic logic and/or statistics. This is textbook generalization fallacy, and textbook assumption based on a poor sample size (which amount to the same thing).

Alex:

Your comment assumes that a statistical analysis has been done that supports the free hand is better, and more people have greater success with it than with other approaches. To my knowledge, this does not exist beyond Mike Stangeland's analysis on MandoZine--and surely, someone with your familiarity with statistics will recognize that the sample size of that is inadequate to generalize.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I am saying that before you start making such strong statements as above, you should ensure that the proper homework has been done first.

And the larger point is this: even if one is correct, sometimes one is incorrect if one's approach or delivery is alienating to the audience one wishes to convince.

[Alex Fields]

Your comment assumes that a statistical analysis has been done that supports the free hand is better, and more people have greater success with it than with other approaches.

It assumes nothing except that the person I was responding to made a generalization based on the apparent success of a single person. But I don't know why I try to clarify things, people will always just pretend you said what they think you said and not bother to pay attention to your actual words and, you know, what they mean.

[Alex Fields]

Also, when I rest my palm on the bridge I don't like the tone of the notes. Moving it a tad further up makes them sound sweeter.

You will get different tone depending on how far up or down you pick...and it is good to be able to move around to change your tone depending on what you want at a given time, so that's one reason not to rely on resting your palm below the bridge. Personally though I find that, given the size of my hands and how far out I hold the pick, if I rest my palm right below the bridge the pick will be almost exactly on the sweet spot of most mandolins. Still not a good idea to rely on resting your palm, but you can let your palm lightly touch the strings that way to give you a sense of balance without sacrificing any control or tone like you usually do by planting pinky.

[Soupy1957]

I wouldn't care if the player had NO fingers, and just a stump for a right hand..if the sound he/she made with the mando was "quality," who cares what their fingers are or are not doing!

Proper technique is only that...a model to go by. After that, if you played the strings with your TONGUE and could make it sound great, that's all that matters.

Uniqueness is typically remembered. "Carbon-copy cutouts" are not.

-Soupy1957

[jmcgann]

The uniqueness for which a player is known is about musical content more than technique IMHO.

If you are a genius, then the technique is secondary. The rest of us would do well to put more thought into it!

[Peter Hackman]

On this topic (and two or three more) there is the usual confusion between a recommendation and a value judgment (after the fact). For each success story of unorthodox technique there may very well be a number of failures that never reach our attention (how could they?). Also, a prominent player's pinky planting is often not the whole story.

And, please, never tell a beginner to do what feels good or pleases him/her at the moment. A beginner is usually a poor judge of the consequences of his/her habits.

When I started playing the mandolin I had a pickguard, and I developed a brushing technique. Nothing wrong with that, really, but I was poorly prepared
for the switch to a mandolin without one; I had to adjust in a number of ways, which took maybe two months.

I later installed a mini-guard that keeps coming off all the time (slowly).
My brushing technique works (almost). Would have been nice to have a floating technique from the very beginning. On the other hand, how lucky I was not to develop a planting habit, and having too small hands to plant
on the face of the mandolin (my hands barely reach an octave on the piano).

How can anyone think that resting a pinky on the top of the mandolin will hurt the tone more than resting the palm of your hand on the bridge, or even near it? Touching the palm of your hand to the strings or bridge is called "palm muting" and should be reserved only for those occasions when you want to mute the strings.

I would also note that right hand techniques that work well for bluegrass don't necessarily translate all that well to other styles and vice versa. Some types of music don't require 980 LOUD notes per minute.